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Lello
22-05-08, 23:08
Here are a few shots (not very good yet, still practicing) of some balloons bursting, the 3rd one, I filled with water and burst it over the bath.
If anybody is interested I will post the method and the equipment used.

Gidders
23-05-08, 06:44
If anybody is interested I will post the method and the equipment used.

Yes please!

Canis Vulpes
23-05-08, 08:06
Very interesting, Lello.

Please post some more, the water balloon is excellent.

yelvertoft
23-05-08, 08:20
Lello,

That water balloon bursting is brilliant. More information please.

andy153
23-05-08, 15:32
Water burst is great - more info please.

Lello
23-05-08, 19:53
About a month ago I saw a photo of a balloon bursting, I was so impressed by it I decided to give a go, As I had a MB-D10 (Nikon vertical grip) that allows bust mode at at 8fps fitted with ni-mh batteries, I thought how hard can it be:( I found half a packet of balloons (about 10) in a draw that had been there since I don't know when. So blew up the first balloon set it up on a shelf, D300 set on CH (high speed burst mode) with remote cord attached (so I could reach the balloon with needle) All set to go, hit release on remote while attacking balloon with needle, looked at result and missed with all shots from that burst :confused: so blow up another balloon and tried again still no luck, well got through all the ten balloons with nothing to show for it:mad: So me thinks, this is harder than I first thought!! Went on the internet and found this site > LINK < (http://www.hiviz.com/)
Then realized that I was going about it the wrong way DOH, you need to have the camera on BULB setting in a dark room and it's the flash going off the gives the result, but for that you need a sound trigger to fire flash, as you can see on the site they have all sorts of triggers. I printed off a list of components and went to Maplins to try and buy and make my own sound trigger, Maplins could not supply all the exact parts needed, so I decided to buy the sound trigger with delay kit from HI-VIZ. About 10 days later the kit arrived, and as I thought I was buying the kit already made up you can imagine my shock when it all arrived in a plastic bag for me to build, well 4 hrs later I manged to build the kit, (will post photo after weekend) I managed to find a packet of balloons at work (for some open day we had six month ago) with the first shots taken, the flash seemed to fire to late and all I was getting was the fragments of the balloons flying through the air, and although my kit has a delay part to it, this was not going to help me! so after moving the trigger further away and trying different aperture settings I'm nearly there, so as I have now run out of balloons I will carry on after the weekend, As I am doing my very first wedding shoot :eek: (shadowing the wedding photographer) for a Friend on Saturday and maybe Going to Duxford Sunday/Monday, So blowing up balloons will have to wait for now.
P.S
I found that filling the balloons with just water and bursting them, the trigger switch was not picking up the very low sound, So I half filled with water and blew them as as well.
There are a few more shots.

miketoll
23-05-08, 21:39
The water filled ones in particular are fascinating. Would be good to see the result with the string and needle cloned out. Oh, and when you get round to capturing a bullet bursting the balloons do post the shot! :D

Lello
23-05-08, 21:46
The water filled ones in particular are fascinating. Would be good to see the result with the string and needle cloned out. Oh, and when you get round to capturing a bullet bursting the balloons do post the shot! :D

I could borrow a shotgun, but I don't think that would work somehow:D

miketoll
23-05-08, 22:26
We would need a picture of your wife's face as she saw what was left of the bathroom! Then you would have to disappear like a high speed flash! :D

Canis Vulpes
24-05-08, 05:53
Absolutely brilliant, lello. Thanks for the explaination, I must have a crack myself.

Saphire
24-05-08, 10:14
I think you have started something Lello we will all be having a go.:D:D

Lello
24-05-08, 10:27
Shame we all live so far away from each other! if we were closer we could have shared the Sound Trigger (at least trying mine out to see what it's like)
with a view to either making one or buying one :)

yelvertoft
24-05-08, 10:50
Thanks for the explanation Lello. I'd guessed that you'd need to use bulb and flash, but couldn't figure out how to synch it all up. The sound trigger is a great idea. I too find the water filled shots to be fascinating. Keep up the good work.

Lello
24-05-08, 10:57
Here are some shots of the built sound trigger, The shots show it in a large matchbox,mainly to protect it and for ease of carrying around.
You can also see that I have spliced the trigger wires on to an old PC cord.
The yellow Ponentiometer (switch) is to control the sound coming from the Mic, and the blue switch is for delaying the flash.

Joe
25-05-08, 13:24
If there was a section for the best post on the forum I think this should be in it!....great Lello, and inspiration

Interesting a mention of a bullet hitting a balloon was made......way back when, the A'level Physics text book had a photo of such. Was fasinated by it and remember it well (that and a london bus on top of 4x unbroken glasses, but that's another story)was made using a specially adapted Nikon, and IR light trigger, due to sound travel being so much slower in the field.

miketoll
25-05-08, 16:26
The reason I mentioned the bullet was that years ago there was a picture taken from the side of a bullet caught in mid flight having just neatly cut in half an edge on playing card. This was in pre digital days so have no real idea how it was done. If genuine it would need a very special high speed flash to freeze the action and probably a high speed cine camera too. Anybody else remember the picture?

yelvertoft
25-05-08, 16:31
This one is fairly well known.......
http://www.worldsfamousphotos.com/stopping-time-1964.html
Must have used a lot of film up, and apples, before they got it right.

Lello
25-05-08, 18:03
If there was a section for the best post on the forum I think this should be in it!....great Lello, and inspiration

Thanks Joe,
Most appreciated,
Now that I have the sound Trigger I'm looking for things to use, I'm trying to get hold of a BB gun (ball bearing gun) or an air gun to try and shoot a light bulb!
maybe a golf ball being struck by a club! Party popper, any other ideas? bring them on :D:D

Gidders
25-05-08, 18:12
Check this page out

http://people.rit.edu/andpph/exhibit-3.html

Lello
25-05-08, 18:16
Check this page out

http://people.rit.edu/andpph/exhibit-3.html

OMG, Thats going to keep me busy:D
Thanks for the link

Lello
25-05-08, 19:07
This is a weird one! :confused: almost looks like 2 shots superimposed, I can only assume that the room was not dark enough, so with the the cam on "BULB"
it took an image before the flash fired.

Joe
25-05-08, 19:48
A couple of ideas to add (getting progressively more dangerous);

a Jacobs cracker (or Ryvita) being broken in two?....those things never break cleanly! :)

A hammer hitting a wet surface?

A hammer hitting and breaking plate glass?

A firework starting (or rocket taking off)?

Joe
25-05-08, 19:52
Another one, which I've thought about since the cricket is on at the mo'...
fitting the trigger with a zoom / tele mic....every single shot would be one with the ball hitting bat, pad or wicket!
Could sit as a spectator enjoying the game without head behind a camera...then leave at the end of the day, knowing you have all the winning shots in the bag! :)

yelvertoft
25-05-08, 22:13
Unless.................. the duration of the flash was greater than the time it takes for a balloon to burst. This would cause the effect you've shown.

Lello
26-05-08, 12:08
Unless.................. the duration of the flash was greater than the time it takes for a balloon to burst. This would cause the effect you've shown.

How do I slow the flash down? If I set it to 1/4 power will that do it?:confused:

yelvertoft
26-05-08, 15:02
Reducing the power level will give a shorter duration burst. I'm not 100% convinced that my original suggestion is the reason you've seen the double burst/not burst image, it was an educated guess.

Hope Don picks up on this thread. He'd shed some light on things.

Canis Vulpes
26-05-08, 15:26
How do I slow the flash down? If I set it to 1/4 power will that do it?:confused:

Below is from the Nikon SB-800 manual, as can be seen reducing the flash duration reduces power.

1/1050 sec. at M1/1 (full) output
1/1100 sec. at M1/2 output
1/2700 sec. at M1/4 output
1/5900 sec. at M1/8 output
1/10900 sec. at M1/16 output
1/17800 sec. at M1/32 output
1/32300 sec. at M1/64 output
1/41600 sec. at M1/128 output

miketoll
26-05-08, 15:40
Ah, I see 'my' card being cut shot is there amongst many others. They are fascinating.

Don Hoey
26-05-08, 19:56
This is a BRILLIANT thread Lello :cool: :cool:
In the mean time ................. smartie pants :)

I will read through it properly tomorrow.

Don

Lello
26-05-08, 22:54
Hi Don
I see you've been busy as well!
Link (http://www.worldphotographyforum.com/gallery//showphoto.php?photo=31730)
I took about 20 shots to get this one, moving trigger around, changing the flash power,and changing aperture. Most of the other shots showed 2 balls (like super imposed shots) but looks like I nailed this one.:D

Lello
26-05-08, 22:57
Below is from the Nikon SB-800 manual, as can be seen reducing the flash duration reduces power.

1/1050 sec. at M1/1 (full) output
1/1100 sec. at M1/2 output
1/2700 sec. at M1/4 output
1/5900 sec. at M1/8 output
1/10900 sec. at M1/16 output
1/17800 sec. at M1/32 output
1/32300 sec. at M1/64 output
1/41600 sec. at M1/128 output

Thanks Stephen
Changing the power output does make a difference.

Don Hoey
27-05-08, 10:36
Some great shots there Lello.

Superimposed shots are probably too long a flash duration. From Foxys post I would be aiming at using 1/128 output ( 1/41600 sec ) for maximum freezing of the action.
I guess the D300 is quite clean to allow setting 1600 ISO to allow for a reasonable aperture.

As for firing bb's or pellets then choose pellets. BB's are the more dangerous option as they are steel balls. Try for an air pistol rather than rifle as they are limited to 6 ft pounds which is half the power of an air-rifle.

Thinks .........................

I have an antique Webly air pistol. .............. try a bit of kitchen foil as a flash trigger ....... mmmmm :rolleyes: . Another diversion ????????? :)

Don

andy153
27-05-08, 11:12
Some great shots Lello and I have to say I admire all the enthusiasm BUT have you noticed one of the specs on one of the photo's - one millionth of a second exposure with strobe lighting - I know Nikon and Canon are good but I do not think any of our cameras can match that.

Don Hoey
27-05-08, 16:50
Andy,
The key is flash duration NOT shutter speed. Camera on bulb in a dark room so the shutter is open. Even Stevies D100 can cope with that. As long as it is recognised that us mere mortals cannot get to flash durations greater than 1/50,000 sec then there are still lots of subjects that we can do. Rifle bullets cutting cards does require some pretty specialst kit in more ways than the flash dept alone though, I agree.
1 million/sec flash now that would be serious money. :eek:

Probably worth a mention on the flash front. Studio units are no good for this as you cannot get anywhere near the short burst duration that a decent camera flash on reduced power will give.

Don

andy153
27-05-08, 18:52
Thanks for that Don - it's not a subject I've ever studied - makes sense though, do you need a very short, high intensity light for this then?

Don Hoey
28-05-08, 11:20
..... it's not a subject I've ever studied

Neither have I Andy. Never even truely tested top speed of 1/8,000 sec to freeze motion to understand its limitations.

Think of normal camera shutters and a series of blades ( 4 ) mechanically linked moving at 1/8,000 sec is no mean feat. To get that speed up to 1/30k or 1/50k to match the fastest burst from a flash requires a complete rethink of shutter design to reduce the number of moving parts.

Faster shutters are only of value if direct lighting is used. If flash is used then if exposure is for flash only, then flash duration becomes the key. Turning the power down does reduce the duration of the burst but also reduces the amount of light. That can be overcome by placing the flash closer to the subject.
Now you have two things affecting the overall exposure. Amount of light from the flash burst and ambient light recorded while the shutter is open. In a dark room with the shutter open there will be no ambient light so no image will be recorded. If you now fire a flash then an image will be recorded purely from the light generated by the flash. Flash duration will determine the ability of that burst of light to freeze motion.

In digital I guess the next consideration is amplification noise on long exposures. So a bit of experimentation is probably required here. For Lello's ballons then camera connected by a remote and you can probably get away with a few seconds. Trigger ... ( shutter open ) - Burst ballon ... ( flash fires ) - Shutter closes.

I have found a couple of further links that may be of interest.
http://chdk.wikia.com/wiki/Samples:_High-Speed_Shutter_&_Flash-Sync
http://www.woodselec.com/index.htm

Don

miketoll
28-05-08, 15:36
I reckon the easiest (!) way would be in a darkened room with two synchronised flashguns set to lowest power for short duration of flash so would not have to have long exposure and noise worries. Without specialised equipment there will be a limit as to how fast an object could be 'frozen'. How about a dart? You would need just a little ambient light to see the target water filled balloon but with a fast shutter speed that would be irrelevant exposure wise.

andy153
28-05-08, 17:28
Don, thanks for that and those links - very "illuminating":o . I know Lello is using a sound trigger but somewhere I have an old Nikon ML-3 infra red remote unit - I think I'll try and set it up so whatever bursts the balloon etc passes through the IR as a trigger and I'll post what I get here. It should work for a dropped ball or hammer on water - lets see.

Don Hoey
28-05-08, 19:56
You will be the death of me Lello, could not resist a go even though I do not have a sound trigger. :)

I dug out the air pistol and clamped it in my milling machine vice.
Pellet stop is a plastic bucket with 3 layers of 200mm rockwool roof insulation. Tests showed the pellet only just made it through one layer.

Without a sound trigger I thought to short out and so trigger the flash using kitchen foil. Two strips, one connected to each side of the old fashioned flash extension terminal.
NOTE IF YOU TRY THIS ........ depending on the trigger voltage of your flash you can get a bit of a shock if you close the contact with your fingers by accident. I did so I know. :eek:

I chose to use my old Vivitar 283 for this experiment. Trigger voltage is quite high but I could turn it down to give a flash duration of 1/30,000 sec.

First shot was to determine the distance the pellet would travel once it had triggered the flash. Triggering is by the pellet force closing the circuit between the two bits of foil.
As can be seen there is not much delay so I will have to work on that one for a pellet exiting the muzzle shot. Also 1/30,000 is not enough to freeze a pellet so it could be a case of exploding food shots.

Second shot was just to see that I could do it. First grape hit dead on but failed to trigger. Workbench and background suitably splattered. Second shot and time getting on so I made sure the flash would fire even though the foil would be visible in the end result. Bench even more of a mess now. :rolleyes:

Exposure info : Camera on remote 2 secs at f16, ISO200, Flash duration 1/30,000 sec. - workshop lights off but enough daylight for me to see what I was doing.

Don

Don Hoey
28-05-08, 19:59
........ but somewhere I have an old Nikon ML-3 infra red remote unit - I think I'll try and set it up so whatever bursts the balloon etc passes through the IR as a trigger and I'll post what I get here. It should work for a dropped ball or hammer on water - lets see.

Neat Andy. Never seen one in the flesh so as to speak so I will see if I have any info in my Nikon leaflet collection.

Don

Lello
28-05-08, 20:23
Amazing shot Don, I knew you'd love to try this sort of photography.
Very neat idea using foil sheets. (I want a GUN :( )
I bought another packet of balloons today, if I get time tonight I will take some more shots and changing the flash power.

andy153
28-05-08, 20:43
Well the electrical trigger works Don - love the "grape shot" shot!!! so now you can peel grapes for all of us!!:D
Lello, have you any thoughts on perhaps making smoothies from the water/fruit juice bursts and the sound trigger??:D

Lello
28-05-08, 22:59
Here are the shots from tonight (sorry more balloon shots) last ones :)
I find that moving the trigger further away and reducing the flash output I don't get the double exposures.
1st shot the balloon splitting
2nd Balloon filled with talc (made a bit of a mess in bathroom :D )
3rd Just water (sorry about the background I tried foil to reflect light)
4th Water with some washing up liquid (then shaken to make it frothy)

As I don't have a pellet gun like Don:( I improvised, I made a paper airplane with a needle taped to the front to make a dart :D (you can see it in some of the shots)

Don Hoey
29-05-08, 09:14
Cooking with gas now Lello.
Looked at the pics before reading the post and thought ............ paper airplane with a needle point :rolleyes: ....... good possibilites there too for deliberate inclusion. :)

I really must get round to actually reading the links posted in this thread.

Stevies birthday today so off to the shops. I may get time later to do a proper job of my foil trigger so it does not appear in shot.

Don

andy153
29-05-08, 10:48
Great set of shots Lello - just a couple of points - were you on auto or manual focus because on Pic 1 rear wallpaper is in sharp focus? On pic 3 the airplane seems like a ghost image - I wonder why? This is a very good thread so thanks for starting it - I'm going to contribute some IR trigger shots as soon as I can get set up - Thanks again.

Lello
29-05-08, 20:03
Great set of shots Lello - just a couple of points - were you on auto or manual focus because on Pic 1 rear wallpaper is in sharp focus? On pic 3 the airplane seems like a ghost image - I wonder why? This is a very good thread so thanks for starting it - I'm going to contribute some IR trigger shots as soon as I can get set up - Thanks again.

Hi Andy, Always manual, the first shot was taken in the Office, balloon 2" away from wall, the rest were taken in the bathroom, 2 and 4 with black backdrop and 3 with a big sheet of silver foil (which didn't work that well:( )
As for the ghost image I can assume like my early tries the flash duration was to long!!

Don Hoey
30-05-08, 20:11
I had a play with trying to sort the foil trigger today. Getting consistancy of pellet travel is still eluding me. Attached is a graphic that explains the problem.

So confident was I that .... yes another grape shot, but here the pellet had travelled way out of frame so too far. Bits of grape all over the place, and as I am using 55mm macro I had to wash the camera down afterwards. Important to use a filter as this needs cleaning after each shot. I am quite sure this would even apply if a 150mm lens was used as I even had bits of grape on my workshop clock on the wall opposite. :eek:

Well tomorrow is another day in which to try and solve the problem.

Don

Lello
30-05-08, 20:38
I think with the set up you have, you could end up with different results every time you try :( all depending how the pellet comes through the foil.)
I will have think as well.
Somehow I do think you'll get there in the end:)

andy153
30-05-08, 21:27
To all those "shooting grapes" out there - just a suggestion - take one polythene decorators sheet mark circle in appropriate place and star cut from centre so you make a hole with flaps that can just fit over the filter on the end of the lens and secure with velcro/elastic strap. Then hang polythene sheet on frame to provide splatter protection. Saves washing up!! :) :)

miketoll
30-05-08, 21:31
Brings a new meaning to the term grapeshot from the original one of a type of ammunition! Just a thought Don, the pellet from the pistol will vary each time as the velocity/power depends on the spring and other mechanical bits all working exactly the same way every time and they just won't. They will stay within an 'envelope' of peformance but not be repeatable with accuracy so you might end up going in circles. With your engineering skills you could make something better to fire a projectile with repeatable performance? BTW are you eating lots of fruit salad? :)

Don Hoey
31-05-08, 09:42
With your engineering skills you could make something better to fire a projectile with repeatable performance? BTW are you eating lots of fruit salad? :)

Kind of photographic scrap heap challenge then Mike. Not sure Stevie would impressed with mini explosive charges as in bullets, no moving parts there. :D

I did try a large lump of grape but it was lead flavoured. :p

I guess I just need to get round to taking more frames. Only fired around a dozen in this exercise so far. :rolleyes:

Don

Don Hoey
31-05-08, 16:33
First attempt at cutting a card with a pellet. Not as dramatic as the well known bullet shots. Slight alignment adjustment needed as the pellet is slightly rear of centre. :(

Attatched composite shows the frame at the moment the flash triggered and a frame taken after the action.

Vivitar flash at 1/30,000 sec burst

Don

miketoll
31-05-08, 16:53
Thats a really difficult task you have set yourself, the pellet must be behind the card and only just clipping it whilst moving away. I was thinking along the lines of a gas driven 'gun' like the more expensive air rifles or a mini crossbow which should both be more repeatable and if you used steel pellets for the gun you could eat the grapes.

Lello
31-05-08, 17:32
Don, As you are missing the pellet in the shot , am I right in thinking you've either need to slow the pellet down or increase the speed of the flash? I take it the flash is at max speed (min power) if so then we need to try slow the pellet down! just thinking, what if you increase the thickness of the cardboard between the foil! would that help or have I missed the plot completely :D

andy153
31-05-08, 17:53
Very good Don - I think the pellet has just moved behind the card as it pushed it out of the way - fixing the top of the card as well might help?

Don Hoey
31-05-08, 20:44
I am attatching a snap of my rather limited play space to give you guys some idea. Barrel end to target is 1 metre so there are limitations to the power of canon that can be safely used.

I agree on your comments on a gas gun Mike, but getting one is not really an option just to get this pic. My air rifle although very accurate is just too powerful to use in this space.

After my last post I tried with flat head pellets but they just mashed their way through so they are a non-runner. I have had 3 clear cuts but the trigger tripped before pellet/card contact, and where I got a clean cut and correct trip then the two strips of foil for the trigger stuck together causing the flash to strobe so that was a dead shot. :mad:

Lello, I am still using the Vivitar at min power giving 1/30,000 flash duration. Part of the problem is that I just went for this without sorting the trigger timing thing which perhaps I should have done as I would have had 3 good ones to post. Second and trickier thing is even at this range with the pistol clamped to my mill it is not consistantly accurate. I have done the 3 shot dry run all perfect, then set up the flash and that has worked fine but I had poor or partial cuts of the playing card. Very frustrating :( . On the pellet shape front then pointed pellets would make perfect cuts but give even greater alignment probs to hit the card edge on.

Full marks to the guy that did those shots with a proper gun. I have not given up yet though. :)

Andy, you could be right about greater support for the card but I am not sure if the work involved in making that will pay off in terms of increased good card cuts.

Don

miketoll
31-05-08, 21:27
I did not mean buy a gun Don but more the idea behind it. A tube for the projectile and a gas-tight chamber which you could pressurise with a bicycle pump through a non return valve (bicycle valve) and an accurate pressure gauge and a trigger or release mechanism. Or maybe one of those gas cylinders you can buy to make fizzy drinks to prime the cylinder. The thing is you could alter the pressure and so the velocity easily and over the short range you have that would not alter the trajectory significantly. Just happy thoughts to help keep you from getting bored! :D

Joe
01-06-08, 08:14
Did anyone see BBC Television's "SpringWatch" on this last thursday?

Had an interesting few minutes talking and demonstrating the Sony box of tricks for capturing slo' mo' frame by frame footage of diving birds.
The demonstration was a water filled ballon, popped with a swiss army knife.
Worked really well, and in bright sunlight.....but he did say it takes 20 minutes to download a short burst of footage!! (and I should imagine the box of tricks costs silly money)

Great thread.
I'm sure there are many like me reading this through, watching to see what intrepid experiments are coming next :)

miketoll
01-06-08, 15:03
Did anyone see BBC Television's "SpringWatch" on this last thursday?

Had an interesting few minutes talking and demonstrating the Sony box of tricks for capturing slo' mo' frame by frame footage of diving birds.
The demonstration was a water filled ballon, popped with a swiss army knife.
Worked really well, and in bright sunlight.....but he did say it takes 20 minutes to download a short burst of footage!! (and I should imagine the box of tricks costs silly money)

Yes I saw it and it gives interesting results. Bet you are right on the silly money but there is still something special about a stills shot taken at precisely the right moment.

Don Hoey
01-06-08, 20:12
.......but there is still something special about a stills shot taken at precisely the right moment.

Just failed here then Mike.

Today I had a read up on pellet gun ballistics and its way beyond the kit that I have to produce something more accurate than what I have for cutting a playing card. While on the subject of ballistics I found that the pellet from the pistol is travelling at around 380 ft per second, so it is in frame for 0.002 secs :eek: . No wonder I was struggling to get it in shot with my rudimentary trigger.

Well I had a play anyway and still never managed to get the pellet in shot. After a few partial cuts I decided to use flat head pellets to increase the possibilty of a full cut.

Attatched is a shot alas less the pellet but fractionally after the card was cut. I assume the shadow on the lower left is from a bit of the card as I used a flat head pellet for this shot. Exposure info : 1.6 secs @ f11, sufficient time to trip the shutter fire and fire the gun but not record ambient light. Flash duration, the critical thing 1/30,000 sec. Pellet travel time across the frame approx 0.00197 secs.

Also attached is a pic of a different view of my set up for the card shots. The trigger is the bit of card held by the red clips, and the red and black leads are connected to a standard pc lead linked to the Vivitar 283. To get alignment of the card, the kit on the bench is a vice on a compound table, mounted on a rotary table. The splatter on the background card is from the grape shots. :D

Don

Lello
01-06-08, 20:24
Looks like you got through at least a pack of cards Don:) (I will have bring my own if I come for a game of Bridge :D), The fact that you got the cut card is quite incredible. Maybe you should drop grapes (from a great hight) on to the trigger and see what results you get (and make a fruit salad at the same time:) )
I have just found some party poppers, I will give them a go later just to see what sort result I get.
You gave it a very good try Don, Is there no way of slowing the pellet?

Lello
01-06-08, 22:03
Well As I only had 3 party poppers, This is the best shot of the bunch,
1st shot with the trigger about 5" away all I got was the lid coming off :(
2nd shot moved the trigger about 2ft away and missed the shot (to much delay)
3rd shot (shown) moved trigger back to about 10" (better but need a bit more delay)
So, if I had had another popper I was going to put it at about 12"-14" away and hoped that would have worked :(

Don Hoey
02-06-08, 10:37
Lello,
Good try on the party popper. At least I am not the only one having syncing problems. ;)

Most of my probs are in the trigger. Getting it to fire at a precise point is the goal. I have had it trigger before the strike or after. Mid card strikes have often been a case of an off contact at the trigger causing the flash to strobe. Arrrh :mad: . Attatched is such an example in which I also failed to clamp the card hard enough so it moved under pellet impact. Bit of card flying off but no sign of the pellet.

On the accuracy front I have discovered that impact on the foil trigger can fractionally deflect the pellet. :( Only really a consideration for the card shot though.

I have 23 cards left to try mods to the trigger. Determined to do this for free, also it takes a different route to the sound trigger stuff that you are doing.

Your drop an object on the trigger would work and I will have a go. While I have the card clamp aligned I really want that shot so will persevere for now. Solution of the trigger problem being key to any exploding shots.

Don

andy153
02-06-08, 11:26
Don, Lello you are going great - The shot of the card just after the cut and the party popper are very good. Too busy at the moment with the new toy but have found the ML-3 IR trigger so will set up and share ASAP. In days gone by I was issued with a Walther PPK or a Browning Hi Power - may be a little too powerful for this; mind you the new laser sights would ensure no misses!!

Don Hoey
12-06-08, 18:51
Back to playing with a trigger. Now on Mk3, and at least the pellet is now in frame :) even if I have lost alignment of the card. Mks 1 & 2 suffered from bounce and so strobed the flash :( .

Attatched 2 shots of the same card. HS Flash 6 really shows what happens to the trajectory of a flat head pellet after cutting 3/4 of its way through the card. The card distortion is the result of the pellet impact and it had nearly returned to flat by the time exposure was over.

Once again, flash used is a Vivitar 283 at a flash duration of 1/30,000 sec.

Don

Saphire
12-06-08, 19:04
Wow Don, you have been working hard. This is one project I can't compete in. Very impressive.
Show off:D:D.

Lello
12-06-08, 19:11
Great shots, well done Don, I knew you'd get there in the end. I'm trying to find someone you can lend me a pellet gun so I can have go, In my younger days everybody had a slug gun!! now I can't find one

miketoll
12-06-08, 19:23
If only the pellet had not been deflected out of the DOF that would have been it - very impressive!

Don Hoey
12-06-08, 19:46
Lello,
Different world back then. :p

Mike,
I am still determined I will get a good one for you. ;)

Christine,
When I have the shot to satisy Mike, I will sort out an easy contact trigger anyone can make with a bit of card and kitchen foil. Not suitable for Lello's balloons but should OK for drop type impact shots. :)

Don

andy153
12-06-08, 20:11
Very good Don, Setting up in my cellar - my son has an air rifle - almost ready to try the IR trigger but it's going to have to go some to match your shots and those of Lello - will post results soonest.

yelvertoft
12-06-08, 20:25
Bravo Don, superb work.

miketoll
12-06-08, 21:12
[QUOTE
Mike,
I am still determined I will get a good one for you. ;)
Don[/QUOTE]

Grief, I am a hard task master aren't I? You should not be so good Don! :D

Don Hoey
13-06-08, 15:13
Taking a break from Mikes cut a card with a pellet mission :) to broaden the possibilities for others that might be interested.

This one was to offer possiblilies of high speed flash to those without seperate triggering devices. The only items required is a lead to allow the flash to be taken off the camera, and a means of triggering the camera ( cable release, other remote release or an assistant ) if the subject is a bit away from the camera.

Camera set to manual at sync speed, and flash in this case SB80-DX, set to 1/64 power on SC-17 lead. Flash has to be fairly close to the subject and aperture will be quite limited unless you have a camera that gives good high ISO performance. This shot was at ISO200 at f5.6, with a flash to subject distance of 12 inches. The workshop had just enough ambient light to allow me to see what I was doing but not enough to affect exposure which is purely flash. SB80-DX flash duration at 1/64 is 1/32,300 sec.

Don

andy153
13-06-08, 17:09
Thanks Don, yet again you provide a very good example and food for thought - I think I might go back to magnesium powder, lit by a match in a dark room with the shutter locked open - you know - the old simple days!!!:)

miketoll
13-06-08, 17:13
Thanks Don, yet again you provide a very good example and food for thought - I think I might go back to magnesium powder, lit by a match in a dark room with the shutter locked open - you know - the old simple days!!!:)

Let us see a photo of you with your beard singed off! :D

Interesting shot Don, there are all sorts of possibilities aren't there?

Don Hoey
13-06-08, 17:15
Never tried the stuff Andy but that could certainly be interesting.

Just tried something different but 1/32,300 sec flash burst was not enough to freeze the spray from an aerosol.

Camera and flash set up as in my previous post.

Don

Don Hoey
13-06-08, 17:23
Let us see a photo of you with your beard singed off! :D



:D :D

Lucky I don't have any magnesium powder but sounds as if Andy does and maybe he will give it a go. :eek:

Before and after pic then Andy.

Don

Don Hoey
13-06-08, 17:57
Magnesium powder a real beard singer. Check this link for a pic of the largest one I ever heard of.
http://photography.nationalgeographic.com/photography/enlarge/flash-light-explosion-photography.html

Don

andy153
13-06-08, 21:06
You all seem to forget - the wife/assistant sticks the match in while you have your head under the old fire proof cloth as you look through your lens....:) :) I don't know you young uns with your digi whatsits........:D

miketoll
14-06-08, 15:39
Digi whatsits? No wonder you don't know what they are called given you have a D3! Or is it a touch of the seniles coming on? Do tell us which! :D

Don Hoey
17-06-08, 20:07
.............. I don't know you young uns with your digi whatsits.

Thats instantly taken years off me Andy .............. I think. :D :D :D

Don

Lello
19-06-08, 23:32
I promise this will be my last water filled balloon shot :)
Different technique, Black board placed in the bath D300 looking down, sound trigger very close (there wasn't much sound to trigger flash) dropped balloon.

yelvertoft
20-06-08, 08:19
Awesome, this is sooo good!

Saphire
20-06-08, 10:04
Wow!, that is fantastic, no more I can say its awesome.

Don Hoey
20-06-08, 10:06
Well done Lello.
This shot and others in your gallery suggest I need to get back to taking pics. :)

Don

andy153
20-06-08, 10:41
Great shot Lello - a fine reward for your patience and perseverance and thanks for taking us along on the journey.

Don Hoey
20-06-08, 10:47
.............. and thanks for taking us along on the journey.

Its NOT over yet Andy. :D :D :D

Messy idea for a contact trigger job.

Don

andy153
20-06-08, 11:56
Thanks Don - I hoped it wasn't - I now have air rifle set up in cellar and am integrating the IR trigger which so far is proving tricky.

Don Hoey
20-06-08, 13:34
Andy,
I guess an IR trigger has got to be very sensitive to register movement of something as small and fast as a pellet. May be worth starting by dropping a larger target ie grape through the beam to get some idea first. This gives the beam a slow large target to focus on. Objects can then be reduced in size so you can determine the sensitivity limits of the IR trigger.

My idea does not involve a pellet gun but I think would have been able to work on Lello's balloon as that could have been by impact trigger.

If the Vivitars fastest speed 1/30,000 is not fast enough I will have to do a job on the SC-17 contacts so I can get up to the 1/64,000 best with the SB80-DX.

I got a bit to fancy for my own good last time I tried this, so going to try something a lot easier this time. :rolleyes: :)

Don

Don Hoey
20-06-08, 16:22
First try at this one.

I'll clean up the mess then try to extend the delay a bit. :rolleyes:

Don

Gidders
20-06-08, 17:20
Or just hit it harder :rolleyes:

yelvertoft
20-06-08, 17:44
This thread just keeps getting better and better.

Lello
20-06-08, 18:53
Brilliant Don, I was trying to find something else to use the trigger on!!
Nicely thought out (I take it this was only the first bulb?)
I assume you are going to wait for another household bulb to blow to try again?

Don Hoey
20-06-08, 20:25
Nicely thought out (I take it this was only the first bulb?)
I assume you are going to wait for another household bulb to blow to try again?

Lello,
Provided you do not get bounce this works first time. So a test for exposure then hit the bulb.

I have just posted the latest in the gallery ( only had 2 bulbs ). ;) But here it is along with details of the trigger.

Well I added another layer of card but with minimal impact on slowing down the trigger point.

I have attatched a pic of the trigger which comprises three 6" x 4" mattes stacked and foil attatched to top and bottom. Budgie on my finger as I type this so I will do a graphic of the flashgun terminal tomorrow. :D

Trigger was taped to a table and covered with a cloth and the bulb placed on top.

For the exposure the camera was set to 2 secs to allow sufficient time to trigger it and hit the bulb with the hammer. Exposure was in a darkened room and so is controlled by the duration of the flash. In this case 1/30,000 sec.

Don

Lello
20-06-08, 20:50
Don you seem to have a lot of light, Did you use only one flash?
Can you post the flash setup.
Lello

Don Hoey
21-06-08, 10:41
Lello,

I did use a seperate flash to light the background only, tripped by a slave. As this had a burst duration of only 1/10,000 sec it was important that no light spill from it touched the subject.

I will do a sketch and post.

Don

Don Hoey
21-06-08, 17:49
OK Lello as requested the light set up.

I did not mention the Metz in the kit used in the gallery as it could be confusing. The key thing with this stuff being flash duration. The Vivitar is able to get to 1/30,000 so good for freezing motion. The Metz best is 1/10,000 sec way to slow. Position of the lights had to take account of those speeds. If the Metz had lit the bulb then its speed would not have been suffucient to freeze motion.

Stray light would have created this effect - Vivitar stops motion but Metz does not, so anything the Metz exposed would be blurred.

I hope that makes sense. :)

Don

Don Hoey
21-06-08, 17:51
For anyone wanting to try this on the cheap with a foil trigger the attatched graphic explains how to convert your standard flash lead to connect to the foil trigger. Remember the flash is NOT connected to the camera.

I have used crocadile clips to terminate my extensions. Well I had them and it makes setting up a lot easier. They are not absolutly necessary but definately make life easier.
Remember in all this that if you have the flash power on and you touch both ends of the circuit you WILL get a tingle. The higher the trigger voltage of the flashgun, the greater the tingle.

In a DIY sense you need a roll of pvc insulating tape, 4 croc clips and about a metre of electric flex cable.
For the trigger I bought a total of four 6"x4" photo mattes for 3 and nicked a bit of foil off Stevies roll in the kitchen. :D

Don

yelvertoft
21-06-08, 18:34
Very well explained Don, thanks.

Lello
21-06-08, 18:48
Thanks for the explanation Don, I'm waiting for my local camera shop to get me a remote trigger flash, (about 5.00) So I can have my second flash triggered by the first flash triggered by the sound trigger, If you know what I mean :D :D

Don Hoey
21-06-08, 20:05
Question Lello,

Out of interest before you produce yet another stunner, what is your other flash ?

Don

Lello
21-06-08, 22:29
I mentioned to you a while back, A YinYan, I got it when I had my Pana
FZ30, When I was looking for a low voltage unit. But it hasn't got a PC sync socket, so I use a remote slave attached that has got a PC sync and a light sensor.

Don Hoey
22-06-08, 19:25
I guess anyone trying high speed pics has a go at the splash. So todays mission was to see if it could be done with a variation of the contact trigger.

For the first attempt I thought to use the liquid as part of the circuit. Despite making contact through a meter it failed to trigger the flash. Electrical boffins will know why that is.

A bit of a think and I decided on a floating trigger using a bit of foil. The idea being that anything dropped into the liquid would create a wave. The foil would ride the crest of the wave and so make contact with the fixed terminal. This works fine everytime so long as the top of the foil is dry along with the fixed contact. Any wetness here and it will fail to trigger the flash.

Water was put in the bowl up to 10mm from the top. The trigger was then positioned before adding the remaining. The foil floats well enough so it is quite easy to raise the water level and float the foil up to give a gap of around 1mm. This spacing is dependant on how large an object you intend to drop since it must be less that the wave that will be generated. 1mm is fine for an ice cube but for something smaller that and gap would need to be smaller and or the trigger placed closer to the impact point.

Provided the contacts are dry and a suitable gap is set this is guaranteed to work every time. My only failures were through forgeting to connect the flash :o , not topping up the water after that failure :rolleyes: , and two more before I realised the significance of wet contacts. So 6 frames were taken to get the gallery pic and the full frame posted here.

Attatched is a pic of the floating trigger, a full frame showng the contacts, and a behind the scenes shot.

Don

PS : As the wave rebounds from the container side it will trigger the flash again as the foil rides the wave, so an assistant to cover the lens with black card directly the first flash burst is over is advisable if you are using a long exposure like me at 2 secs. 2 secs chosen for trigger the camera and drop the ice cube.

Lello
22-06-08, 22:28
Very Well thought out Don, Thank god for tin foil :) Very good to get that shot after only six attempts

Don Hoey
23-06-08, 12:06
......Thank god for tin foil :) Very good to get that shot after only six attempts

:D :D Always a challenge to do things on the cheap.

No problem once you have worked out a reasonable gap between the contacts for the effect you want. Larger the gap within the boundarys of the wave height the greater the delay. Trigger is guaranteed to trip the flash.

Two more from yesterday. I started by testing with a Trebor mint dropped into a glass. This was when I discovered that although water conducts electricity it is not good enough to trigger the flash. Staying with the glass I then tried the foil float. Problem for me was trying to get the contact gap right in the confines of a glass. Eyes are not what they were. So I moved onto a larger bowl.

Pic 2 is the result of too greater contact gap, so too great a delay. This was because I did not top up the water from a previous failed attempt when I forgot to connect one of the flash terminals. You can see the waves created by the cube though.

Don

Don Hoey
25-06-08, 19:47
A harder job today. It took all afternoon to make up the sequence even though I only did 8 drops. A couple missed the trigger altogether. Not so easy doing this in a dark room.

The first job was to remove some screws from the camera so it would break apart on impact.
For each drop the camera was fully assembled minus the screws I had removed. So for each drop the camera had to be re-assembled, and the top foil sheet from the trigger replaced. In order to try and change the delay, tension on the top foil was increased from a bit slack to drum tight.

The trigger was the same impact job as in 'Lights Out'. Lighting was also the same with the addition of a reflector on each side.

To increase dof ISO was upped from 200 used for the light bulb to 400 allowing for an aperture of f8.

Link to the shot http://www.worldphotographyforum.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=32496&limit=recent

Don

Lello
25-06-08, 22:33
Very well thought out Don, You seem to be getting nice lighting (but of course you the lighting man :)) I can't wait for my remote slave trigger, and some sort of idea on what to use the sound trigger on :( You keep coming up with such good ideas.

Don Hoey
26-06-08, 19:37
........... and some sort of idea on what to use the sound trigger on

Lello,

Light bulb would be great with a sound trigger as you could set a far longer delay than I can at the moment, although trials will continue when I get the next dead one. So if you use a hammer then try a delay to give the head half way through the bulb. Now that would look impressive.

I will have to think about sound trigger shot possibilities, as in my mind I have been thinking impact only as sound is not an issue.

A lot that I have seen on the net involves the subject breaking light beams to trigger the flash. No cash for that kit but I am not detered. I will find another route that does not cost. For me solving that is all part of the challenge. :)

Don

Lello
27-06-08, 18:58
Hi Don I will try and buy the remote flash sensor over the weekend (if the shop have managed to get some in) then I will try some more shots using the sound trigger and bulb (I might try bulb hitting the ground).
By the way I have been given about 5 used disposable cameras, I might see if I can use the flash's out of them (some how wiring them together with a battery) to make some sort of ring flash :) any ideas on how to get them to fire? maybe using the same remote flash trigger unit?

Don Hoey
27-06-08, 19:30
Lello,
I will have a look to see if anyone has posted a pic of an open disposable camera on the net. THE MOST IMPORTANT THING if you dismantle one to get at the flash is to earth out the capacitor. Even a disposable with its tiny flash could give you a serious belt. :eek:

Whatever you try with the bulb consistancy is the thing. So if it is a drop, then you need to arrange some sort of height marker to ensure that. On my Oops shot the final frame was dropped from a bit higher than the others which I am sure contributed to the extra bounce. If you look at my bulb shot and then imagine the hammer at half way through the bulb then you would probably be talking a few milliseconds.

I am also looking at a new shot but I think I am going to have to make up a trigger specially for it. :)

Don

Don Hoey
27-06-08, 19:57
Lello,

Check out step 3 in this link. It shows the circuit board from a disposable camera.

Read what the guy says in step 2.
http://www.instructables.com/id/EEUVEHPCTPEP286A78/

Take a pic of one of yours as you dismantle and post ( nothing too fancy ). Bound to be a lot clearer than those in the link.

Don

Lello
27-06-08, 21:03
Thanks for the link Don, I left the camera's at work:(, But I might have time to pop in tomorrow am (Saturday) and pick them up.
Will post some photos of the insides as soon as I can.

Don Hoey
28-06-08, 09:38
Hi Don I will try and buy the remote flash sensor over the weekend (if the shop have managed to get some in) .....................
............ I might see if I can use the flash's out of them (some how wiring them together with a battery) to make some sort of ring flash :) any ideas on how to get them to fire? maybe using the same remote flash trigger unit?

The remote sensor will be the way to go as far as triggering them. As the trigger voltage of these could be quite high it will be far safer if they are not connected direct to the camera.

Your pop up would activate the trigger. When at your dealer it would be worth getting a Cokin filter holder adaptor ring of suitable thread size for your lens. This could then be glued to whatever surface you intend to mount your 5 mini flashes to.

If I was doing this then from a craft shop I would get a sheet of K & S aluminium. These are about 4" x 9". Cut a centre hole and araldite the Cokin ring to that. You can then temporary mount the litte flashes with insulating/masking tape to work out the best layout.

Mind you living out in the sticks K&S alum is about the only stiff material I could get. If you are near a Maplins then a bit of circuit board would be even better. :)

Don

Don Hoey
28-06-08, 19:43
As this was to be done using a contact trigger the first job was to make a contact that could be adjusted for height. I could have gone mad and made up a fancy pivot and counterbalance arrangement as in the sketch, but I was keen to take the pic so opted for a cobbled together job instead once this was done. A bit of copper pipe bent round a bit of drilled brass with electrical blocks attached with steel rods to hold the counterweights, running on a rod and held in position with two more connector blocks. The washers are for fine balance as the cream was added.

Dropping the strawberry on target in near darkness was a bit of a challenge. 2 misses, 3 with poor placement and 2 with strobing flash that Stevie was not fast enough to react to were taken before getting this one. So it was very much a joint effort.

Attatched is a pic of the trigger, and a crop of the drop from the final pic.

Tomorrow I will do a graphic and post the lighting plan.

Don

PS : For Foxy, Your black velvet has just come out of the washing machine. :D :D

PPS : Before I am asked I just measured the drop height, and the strawberry was dropped from a height of 18 inches.

Lello
28-06-08, 21:33
Excellent shot Don (you clever boy) The contrast between the red Strawberry and the white milk make this for me, and the fact that I know how hard it to get a shot like this.

Lello
28-06-08, 21:49
Hi Don here a 2 photos of the dismantled disposable cameras, showing the front and the back of the circuit board (batteries removed) I worked out that you get a nasty shock if you touch a certain part without discharging the capacitor:(
Yes I know you warned me but I'm naturally curious:)
The round disc you see on the front, is a switch which has to pressed once to charge unit (that may cause a little problem) then by shorting out the 2 protruding wires the flash works. So, first I need to find a way round the switch, once that sorted then I can start wiring together and sorting
out a battery pack.
Will keep you informed

Lello
28-06-08, 21:53
Here are two shot using the Don method. Still need to sort out the delay a bit more, (only had 1 bulb to play with)

Don Hoey
29-06-08, 08:48
............. I worked out that you get a nasty shock if you touch a certain part without discharging the capacitor:(
Yes I know you warned me but I'm naturally curious:)
The round disc you see on the front, is a switch which has to pressed once to charge unit (that may cause a little problem) then by shorting out the 2 protruding wires the flash works. So, first I need to find a way round the switch, once that sorted then I can start wiring together and sorting
out a battery pack.
Will keep you informed

Lello,

You are crazier than me. :eek:

For power supply will the thought in the attached work ?

Don

Don Hoey
29-06-08, 08:57
Here are two shot using the Don method. Still need to sort out the delay a bit more, (only had 1 bulb to play with)

Going through the Christmas decs now. :rolleyes: What will Tina say. :)

Perhaps you need to have a work collection for dead bulbs. To get yourself in some low cost practice with the sound trigger in the mean time, see if you can get some nuts in their shells. Wrong time of year but a possibility from a health food shop.

Ideally for the bulb you need a bigger hammer or even an axe for dramatic impact. :D

Don

Don Hoey
29-06-08, 14:00
Attatched is the lighting plan for the strawberry drop. Once again the key to positioning the flash is Flash Burst Duration and NOT light output.
Positioning of the Metz may seem a bit strange as its main output is towards the black velvet. Its position was to allow spill light to catch the bottle only, and the black velvet absorbed the bulk of its output. Strawberry being totally lit by the Vivitar.

As both flashguns were on minimum power light balance was by moving the flash units relative to the subject.

The black flag was to limit possibilities of flare from the Vivitar with the Stofen diffuser as the end of the flash unit was just out of frame.

Don

Don Hoey
30-06-08, 11:33
Having mentioned strobing flash a few times I thought I should post an example.

Strobing or multiple firing of the flash is caused by trigger bounce. In this case the spoon can be seen to have bounced after the first exposure and remade the flash contact while the shutter was open.

Not good in this case, and as the exposure was 2 secs allowing for tripping the camera and aiming and dropping the strawberry from up a ladder, Stevie had to quickly place a card in front of the lens immediately the flash triggered for the first time. Lots of fun here. On one occasion she was so wound up she did that when I tripped the shutter and before the stawberry hit the spoon. You can probably imagine how she was with the bulb shot :) . In the dark, and they really do go with a bang :D . Hard life being my assistant.

There are possibilities though for a controlled strobe of a moving object. Possibly using a pendulum as a trigger. More things to work on.

Don

yelvertoft
30-06-08, 15:55
Better start stocking up Don.........
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/7480958.stm

Don Hoey
30-06-08, 19:28
Quote from the article [ Some higher energy bulbs will be gone by January 2009, and all incandescent lights will be off by 2011.

The agreement is voluntary, but other countries have announced legal bans, including Ireland, Australia, New Zealand and the US. ]

Well at least UK based photogs that want to have have a go have a couple of years to perfect the shot.

Being the WORLD Photography Forum I did not realise this is a shot that some could not attempt.

Having broken flourecent tubes before, I do not fancy trying the ' smash a bulb ' with a low energy job. I guess they contain the same powdery stuff.

Don