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1D Mark II N Picture Style and Colour Space

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  #1  
Old 12-07-06, 20:30
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Default 1D Mark II N Picture Style and Colour Space

I have just upgraded my 10D (broke it) to a 1D Mark II N (had it a few days), and I’m trying to understand the ‘Picture Style’ parameter settings (sharpness, contrast, saturation, colour tone) and 'Color Space' settings.

I shoot in RAW and I’m comfortable with post-processing images (happy to learn). Should I choose Neutral or Faithful Picture Styles (not sure of the difference between the two as all parameters are set to zero) and use Photoshop to influence the sharpness, saturation, etc, or should I choose one of the other styles and include some in-camera sharpening, etc?

What Colour Space should I use? If I intend to process my images on Photoshop, should I use Adobe RGB (the manual recommends sRGB)? With the 10D, I also had a choice of influencing the parameters, but if I chose Adobe RGB, all the parameter settings would revert to standard, presumably assuming that I’d want to add sharpness, saturation, etc, after the event. I used sRGB, but without fully understanding why.

With my new camera, according to page 53 of the manual, the RAW image is affected by the parameter settings, including sharpness. I may have missed something, but I cannot find any mention in the manual of what happens to the parameter settings if I select Adobe RGB, so I’m assuming that the parameter settings will still influence the image if I choose Adobe RGB as the colour space (unlike my 10D)?

What do others do with these settings?
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Old 12-07-06, 23:21
Stephen Stephen is offline  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bpw
I have just upgraded my 10D (broke it) to a 1D Mark II N (had it a few days), and I’m trying to understand the ‘Picture Style’ parameter settings (sharpness, contrast, saturation, colour tone) and 'Color Space' settings.

I shoot in RAW and I’m comfortable with post-processing images (happy to learn). Should I choose Neutral or Faithful Picture Styles (not sure of the difference between the two as all parameters are set to zero) and use Photoshop to influence the sharpness, saturation, etc, or should I choose one of the other styles and include some in-camera sharpening, etc?

What Colour Space should I use? If I intend to process my images on Photoshop, should I use Adobe RGB (the manual recommends sRGB)? With the 10D, I also had a choice of influencing the parameters, but if I chose Adobe RGB, all the parameter settings would revert to standard, presumably assuming that I’d want to add sharpness, saturation, etc, after the event. I used sRGB, but without fully understanding why.

With my new camera, according to page 53 of the manual, the RAW image is affected by the parameter settings, including sharpness. I may have missed something, but I cannot find any mention in the manual of what happens to the parameter settings if I select Adobe RGB, so I’m assuming that the parameter settings will still influence the image if I choose Adobe RGB as the colour space (unlike my 10D)?

What do others do with these settings?
Paul, so far as I can tell we are the only two people on the forum that are using this camera. I upgraded from a 20D back in April this year, and like you am to some extent still familiarising myself with the camera. Like you I use totally Raw for shooting and had assumed that the Picture Style mode was something that only applied to JPEGs. However if the manual says that Picture style setting are applied to the Raw image then I accept that. However I never use these parameters, and indeed question the need to do so when using Raw. The point of Raw is that you stay in full control of your images from start to finish, allowing the software, in my case CS2 to do the processing to my own personal taste. In the case of sharpening ACR is always set to the default of 25. White balance is set to Auto in the camera and I simply adjust it to suit in ACR.

As for Colour Space, I always have the camera set to sRGB and will have ACR set to Adobe 1998 if I am going to use the processed image to print from on my own printer which can take advantage of the wider colour gamut that results from this. If I am going to supply digital files to clients, have them commercially printed or simply use them for web use, I will process the files in sRGB.

Hope this is of some use, but please come back if there is something else and I'll try to give you my take on it.

PS I forgot to ask how are you finding the camera. For my own part, the more I use it the more I love it, infact I think its an awesome machine
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Last edited by Stephen; 12-07-06 at 23:38.
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Old 13-07-06, 00:21
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Thanks for your reply Stephen.

I got the camera on Saturday last, and used it on Sunday – a very gloomy day – and twice in the evenings, so it’s very early days for me. I love the build and feel of the camera and the speed, but I haven’t been overly happy with my initial results, which is why I’m asking the questions about the settings. Having said that, I’ve been experimenting in PS this evening and I’ve made some progress. I’ve had Picture Style set at Neutral, which is described as ‘natural colours, dull tones and no sharpening’, and I suspect the images were coming off my 10D a little sharper and more colourful.

I used ACR initially, but didn’t get on with it, which I suspect was down to inexperience rather than anything else. I now use BreezeBrowser Pro, which I’m very happy with (I notice Adobe require me to upgrade to CS2 if I want to process RAW in Photoshop, which makes me angry even though I don’t use it, but that’s another story).

With my 10D I had a routine for processing pictures in BreezeBrowser and PS that I was happy with, varying it where required to suit individual images. I just need to develop a new strategy for processing images from the MkII N. I currently only put my images on the WEB so I’ll stick with sRGB; as you say, I can always change this in my RAW converter if needed. I need to decide on in-camera parameter setting as a starting point (even though these setting are not really important and can be overridden on conversion), and then determine some ‘standard’ sharpening, curves, hue/saturation, etc, values as a starting point.

I notice in your thread that you rarely need to add sharpening? I wonder where you have the Picture Style set? From my initial trials, and with the ‘Neutral’ setting, I suspect I will need to, although it’s early days yet and maybe I’m just not using the camera well?
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Old 13-07-06, 09:33
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Paul, your comments have prompted me to evaluate my own camera settings in terms 'picture style', which I hasten to add have never been altered from the factory settings that came with the camera. The camera is set on User Def 1 which is Standard. I see that in fact the sharpening in Standard is set to 3 whilst Contrast, Col Sat and Tone are all at 0

Now if as we have discovered these settings are applied to the Raw file, this is obviously the reason why my images seem to require little or no sharpening. I have no intention atm of altering these settings, and am happy to change things in the Raw converter, ACR in CS2.

If your camera came with the same factory settings as mine, I am suprised you have been a tad disappointed. I found the images from my 10D much inferior by comparison. The 20D was a big stepup in terms of image quality, though again I never altered parameters,always believing that they were never applied in Raw. Frankly, what you have discovered, has been somewhat of a revelation though it matters little as I am more than happy with my results.

May I ask what glass you are using?
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Old 13-07-06, 14:10
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My camera did come with the same factory setting as yours, but after reading the manual I changed the Picture Style to neutral, which has a setting of 0 for all parameters including sharpness, which perhaps explains why my images are not as sharp as I’m used to. I need to do an experiment to confirm that changes in in-camera sharpness setting are maintained when the RAW image is converted.

I came across the document below this morning, I don’t know if you’ve seen it? It states that:

“Entry-level and advanced amateur models such as the EOS Digital Rebel, 10D and 20D use a 5-step sharpness scale from -2 to +2, with default settings typically at 0 (mid-scale) or +1. This is a noticeably higher level of in-camera sharpening than the default settings for EOS-1 class Digital SLRs, and may cause some concern for photographers who use both cameras [me!]. On the other hand, the default setting for sharpness level on EOS-1 class Digital SLRs is 0 on a scale from 0 to 5 [this is not true of the MkII N!]. This lack of in-camera sharpening was intentionally chosen by Canon to preserve as much image detail as possible with in-camera JPEGs. (In-camera sharpness settings do not apply to RAW files because they can be overridden during conversion.) The default “no sharpening” setting allows maximum latitude for post-processing.”

Note the sentence: “In-camera sharpness settings do not apply to RAW files because they can be overridden during conversion.” This seems to contradict the Mk II N manual, but perhaps things have changed with the introduction of this camera? The default setting for sharpness, as we’ve discovered, is not 0.

The document also suggests the following settings for high quality inkjet printing as a starting point for Adobe USM with EOS 1 series cameras:

Amount: 300%
Radius: 0.3 pixels
Threshold: 0 pixels

http://photoworkshop.com/canon/EOS_Digital.pdf

I use the 400mm f5.6 L USM. I’m very happy with the sharpness of the lens, so my issue is with the software settings I’m sure. I notice you’re a landscape photographer; I photograph birds, so perhaps we have slightly different requirements in terms of sharpness?

I’ll get to the bottom of it I’m sure!
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Last edited by bpw; 13-07-06 at 14:43.
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Old 13-07-06, 14:37
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Thanks for that Paul. I have read something like like this before and as a result had always assumed that no in camera processing inc sharpening was applied to the Raw file. However I see that this was written by Chuck Westfall, who is often treated like God when it comes to Canon technical issues. I can remember also reading something on a Canon site after the 300D was released which stated clearly that its in camera sharpening was greater than that of the higher spec models. I've never been able to find it since and wonder if it was pulled as canon didn't want it generally known to be the case.

I suppose this is something that could be clarified on some of the dedicated Canon forums. I for one would certainly maintain that for me using the standard paprameter settings which appears to have a Level 3 sharpening applied that 300%usm is rather high, though I have used under 50 at 0.3 radius and 0 threshold on images for web use after downsizing. These days I rend to be happy with the bicubic sharper setting in Save for Web though

Whilst I do take landscapes for pleasure and personal work I also use my camera and lenses for much closer work. Like you I have found that investing in the more expensive L series glass has paid dividends.
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Old 21-07-06, 22:39
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A bit late to this thread, but...as far as I understand, if you shoot in RAW, you can adjust the settings that you would have on a P&S digital camera (for example, sharpen, saturation etc). At the end of the day, the RAW processing s/w (such as Breeze B' Pro) is using the camera manufacturer drivers to understand the data in the file from the camera and presenting it to you on the computer (as would their own software).

I use the Faithful picture setting on my 1Dmk2N and '0' on all settings on my 20D. Once convereted from RAW to TIFF, I make any adjustments that would have been in camera, later in PS CS2. At the end of the day - I trust my eyes and the big PC I have, rather than the little camera ;-)

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Old 22-07-06, 00:52
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Originally Posted by mw_aurora
I use the Faithful picture setting on my 1Dmk2N and '0' on all settings on my 20D. Once convereted from RAW to TIFF, I make any adjustments that would have been in camera, later in PS CS2. At the end of the day - I trust my eyes and the big PC I have, rather than the little camera ;-).
As far as I understand it, the Faithful setting does nothing to the image (I'm sure that's not possible, but you know what I mean). I'm therefore interested to know what type and degree of sharpening you do in PS, particularly with bird shots? I notice that the images are quite soft with the Faithful setting.

The difficulty for me at this stage is, I don't know how much my results are down to the camera settings or how much they're down to my lack of experience with the camera.
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Old 23-07-06, 17:21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bpw
As far as I understand it, the Faithful setting does nothing to the image (I'm sure that's not possible, but you know what I mean). I'm therefore interested to know what type and degree of sharpening you do in PS, particularly with bird shots? I notice that the images are quite soft with the Faithful setting.

The difficulty for me at this stage is, I don't know how much my results are down to the camera settings or how much they're down to my lack of experience with the camera.
I think that the soft image when using faithful is due to the anti-aliasing applied by the camera to the image. I am still experimenting with when and what to sharpen to reduce this and have started to look at applying some during RAW conversion and then my normal sharpening after processing (either for web or print). For the final sharpening I have been using the Focal Blade plugin or I sometimes just use the standard USM filter if Focal Blade increased the noise in the background too much.

I also think part of the 'soft feel' to the images comes from lack of contrast with the Faithfull setting.
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Old 23-07-06, 17:46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mw_aurora
I think that the soft image when using faithful is due to the anti-aliasing applied by the camera to the image. I am still experimenting with when and what to sharpen to reduce this and have started to look at applying some during RAW conversion and then my normal sharpening after processing (either for web or print). For the final sharpening I have been using the Focal Blade plugin or I sometimes just use the standard USM filter if Focal Blade increased the noise in the background too much.

I also think part of the 'soft feel' to the images comes from lack of contrast with the Faithfull setting.

Undoubtedly you are right about the anti-aliasing filter giving soft images. DSLR's produce inherantly soft images if in camera sharpening is switched off when compared with the average digicam.

However I doubt it has anything to do with lack of contrast in the Faithful setting. My images use the default 'Standard' setting and they seem to have good contrast.

I have to re-itterate what I have mentioned before, that using the 'Standard' setting which has a level 3 sharpening set and 0 in the others seems to produce pin sharp images that require no further sharpening. Having said that Adobe Camera Raw does have a default sharpening of 25 which I leave. I have found in the past using other cameras that increasing this to 50 gives a good result.

If Paul had not made me aware of the 1DMkIIN applying sharpening to the Raw file as default, I would have been happy and somewhat smug in the assumption that this was the sharpest camera I have ever owned
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