PC for photoprocessing
 

Hi

I need to start thinking about upgrading my PC - I havn't enough space or RAM to use the RAW (NEF) on my Nikons and the computer just rolls over with its legs in the air when I try to download and the free version of Rawshooter won't load!! Photo Elements 3 takes about a minute (well it feels like this) to load a image and the same to save it after processing - Help!

What are the minimal and best specs for a good photoprocessing PC ( either PC or Notebook) and does this machine exist, and if so, what is it and how much does it cost!!

Cheers

Stuart R

Stuart: I run Nikon Capture on a 3GHz P4 with 1.5 GB RAM and it has no problem with D70 images, but for D200 images, it is sometimes slow. I think a 2GHz AMD Athlon would give similar performance. I think you will need at least 1GB RAM but 2GB is better. Check out reviews in PCW magazine etc.

If you get a Hyperthreaded Pentium, make sure you get Windows XP Pro, as the non-pro version cannot use Hyperthreading.

Leif

Several points I'd make:

Don't trust the reviews you see in magazines. The computer press is on the whole dreadful, with a truly alarming level of ignorance amongst many computer journalists, and it is notorious for a near-universal practice of giving positive reviews to the companies that buy the most advertising, regardless of actual merit. Don't even read the computer press, never mind make buying decisions based on that fiction.

Don't buy a Pentium 4, with or without Hyperthreading. The old P4 was throughly trounced performance-wise by the now-defunct Athlon XP, and isn't even in the same race as the Athlon 64. They are very hot and not particularly quick and are well and truly on the way out now. Intel's newest chips are vastly better but won't be available in quantity anytime soon. That leaves you with Sempron (a good choice) or Athlon 64 (a better choice), or else waiting for the new Intel chips to arrive in volume and have their teething troubles sorted out - for that last option, plan on buying around the end of the year or early next year.

RAM: 1GB would do but 2GB would be better. Clock speed: whatever you can afford. Don't forget that different chips deliver different performance levels reardless of raw clock speed, which means that you can't assume that two different 3000MHz parts are equivalent - they can bbe a long, long way apart.

Storage: Samsung make the most reliable hard drives on the market, there is really no point in buying any other brand at present, though you might consider Hitachi if you need to. Performance differences between drives are marginal these days, excepting only the noticably faster Western Digital Raptor line, but that comes at the cost of a very poor reliability record.

Optical drives: LG are good, but just about all the brands are OK these days.

Don't ever, ever, ever buy a supermarket vomit box (Compaq, Acer, Dell, Hewlett-Packard, etc.). These things are guaranteed to deliver less performance, with a shorter warranty, and a much higher spare parts cost than anything else on the market. If you want a can of baked beans, go to a supermarket. If you want a camera, go to a camera shop. If you want a computer, go to a computer shop.

Hi

Many thanks to you both. It probably will be around the turn of the year before I can stump up the cash to move onward and upward!!

Tannin, I know you at the other end of the world, but is then any UK PC manufacturers that you would buy from or is the best route to see if I can get one built on spec?

Thanks again

Thanks

Stuart R

I'm afraid I disagree with almost everything that Tannin says.

Tannin: "Don't buy a Pentium 4, with or without Hyperthreading. The old P4 was throughly trounced performance-wise by the now-defunct Athlon XP, and isn't even in the same race as the Athlon 64. They are very hot and not particularly quick and are well and truly on the way out now."

About 1 year ago I went for a P4 as there was not much in it, and several colleagues (fellow software engineers) did the same. If you have seen a hot machine, that is due to inadequate cooling. (That is one reason not to get a small size case.)

Tannin: "Don't trust the reviews you see in magazines. The computer press is on the whole dreadful, with a truly alarming level of ignorance amongst many computer journalists, and it is notorious for a near-universal practice of giving positive reviews to the companies that buy the most advertising, regardless of actual merit. Don't even read the computer press, never mind make buying decisions based on that fiction."

I don't know the Australian press, but the UK magazines are pretty good. The journalists on magazines such as PC Pro and PC World seem to know their stuff. The tests are thorough, using standardised methods to stress a PC. The worst performers are usually the brands that appear on the high street. In addition they have user surveys, which give real world feedback about quality, support, reliability and so on.

Tannin: "Don't forget that different chips deliver different performance levels reardless of raw clock speed, which means that you can't assume that two different 3000MHz parts are equivalent - they can bbe a long, long way apart."

What matters is the overall system performance. There's no point in having a fast CPU if the memory is the bottleneck. Similarly the hard disk, motherboard, graphics card and chipset all play a role. That's why magazine performance tests are so useful. They tell us the strengths and weaknesses of a given machine. Why pay more money for high grade games performance when it is no faster at PhotoShop? (Unless you also play games.)

Tannin: "Don't ever, ever, ever buy a supermarket vomit box (Compaq, Acer, Dell, Hewlett-Packard, etc.). "

I have been working in IT currently as a consultant for 13 years and almost every company I have worked at buys Dell boxes. They have decent performance and reliability and I guess business support must be okay. I bought a Dell, and never again as the monitor arrived broken, and the support was appalling. However, most of my friends/colleagues buy Dell laptops and are very happy with them. They offer excellent performance for the money. They are not expensive to expand. Off the shelf components will do. Companies such as Crucial.com sell high quality memory at good prices. Compaq and HP are expensive IMO. Watford Electronics sell components at good prices (I live down the road from them!).

In the UK brands such as Carrera, Mesh and Aries get good feedback. As I say, check the magazine reviews and user surveys. My feeling is that companies such as Dell that assemble PC's to order are best as they do not sit on the shelves for any time, and so margins can be low. They also use the latest components.

As for the other jargon, you want a SATA hard disk (not the older PATA), and I would go for 200GB or more, and you want the more modern PCI Express graphics format. Also make sure that the motherboard can be expanded to at least 3 GB RAM and preferably 4 GB. Some motherboards only accept 2 GB. I think you should also get a DVD player and a DVD writer so that you can copy disks if need be.

You might want to consider backups. What do you do when the hard disk fails? Will you lose all your images? One solution is to use RAID with dual disks, whereby if one disk fails, the other contains a copy of the data. Or maybe an external USB hard drive with backup software. That will be my solution. The alternative is to use DVD's but it is tedious and they do not last indefinitely. I do not claim to be up on this issue.

Also I would recommend avoiding small format cases as they will limit your expansion possibilities.

One thing I will stress is do not spend money on a games machine, as you will be paying for expensive graphics performance that is not needed for PhotoShop etc. Unfortunately I cannot tell you which graphics cards to look for.

As for screens, well I use an old 19" Iiyama Vision Master Pro 450. I am not convinced that TFT is as good. And I only payed £60 for a used one.

Leif

As Lief says, "One thing I will stress is do not spend money on a games machine, as you will be paying for expensive graphics performance that is not needed for PhotoShop etc."

Well, I made this mistake and bought a Dell XPS 600 machine which was a top-of-the-range gaming machine at the time. I also paid extra for adding on to the Dell spec a whazzo nVidia card thinking that would be just the thing for photoshop, etc. It certainly wasn't. Not least because it (its software) wouldn't work with the dual-screen configuration of 2 x ViewSonic VP730 monitors that I use.

So, after a lot of research, I came across Matrox: http://www.matrox.com/mga/workstatio...ducts/home.cfm. These dudes were the first people (AFAIAA) who designed multi-headed cards. I chose the Matrox Millenium P650 PCIe 128 and what a fantastic card it is. No more Windows blue screens of death and it comes with excellent calibration software. Although Matrox cards don't seem to ship with Dell products (and I do recommend Dell), make sure the Dell motherboard supports PCI Express (PCIe) and then buy a cheap card as part of the Dell spec, then switch it out and replace it with a Matrox.

I use 2 x 300 GB Maxtor DiamondMax SATA hard drives - one as the primary, the other has a clone of my system (Windows and software) and also backup of all my data and photographs. I don't use RAID 0 (which would do this automatically) because if there is a problem with the hard drive you are "copying" from, it copies the errors onto the backup hard drive.

I also have 4 Gb of RAM, but really only 2 Gb is needed.

One of the things is to change your pagefile so that it is the right size for your memory - the default is often not. You can get quite a leap in performance if you do this.

As Tannin said, "Don't ever, ever, ever buy a supermarket vomit box (Compaq, Acer, Dell, Hewlett-Packard, etc.). These things are guaranteed to deliver less performance, with a shorter warranty, and a much higher spare parts cost than anything else on the market. If you want a can of baked beans, go to a supermarket. If you want a camera, go to a camera shop. If you want a computer, go to a computer shop"

That is excellent advice - I work in IT and have to spend quite a bit of spare time fixing family/friends PCs because they thought they'd save money by buying a cheaper PC "supermarket" style. I guess that is ok for them because they have a mug like me to fix it for them when (not if) it goes wrong!

Also, definitely go for XP Pro not home and make sure you have good security (anti-virus, personal firewall, etc).

Of course, the best thing to do is to do a self-build. One of my machines I built myself and it is the most stable machine I have! However, researching which components, buying them and then building the machine is rather time-consuming, hence why I bought my second machine - the Dell XPS. Now I regret not having spent time to build another box because the Dell worked out far more expensive than if I had just built it myself because of switching out the hard drive for 2 x 300 Gb, buying the Matrox video card and extra memory! Next time I will self-build again - it's the only way to get exactly what you want.

Definitely you want a tall box as Leif said - you will be able to fit lots of stuff in there should you need to upgrade in the future. That is probably the only good thing about my Dell XPS apart from the fact it has a groovy light on the front <g>

In that case I'd recommend a temporary solution - buy some more RAM. You should be able to add enough to take you to 1GB or more for less than £100. And it'll probably make a huge difference.

Hi

R2didi2 - "One of the things is to change your pagefile so that it is the right size for your memory - the default is often not. You can get quite a leap in performance if you do this." - how do I check this please.:)


Hollis_f

How can I tell what RAM is in the computer at the moment, and is it possible to find out if there is another slot available for extra RAM (preferably without opening the case!):confused:

Thanks

Stuart R

Hi Stuart R

Why tie yourself down with an expensivea ready built PC that is not designed for the type of work you intend for it, most of the brand name computers such as Dell, Compaq etc, are compromises that work well in an office environment but are lacking in the performance stakes. The only way you'll get the computer spec you would like is to make it yourself, or have someone make it for you. It's certainly not necessary to go for the latest all singing and dancing CPU, 2.8 to 3.6 mhz is more than adequate for graphics manipulation, certainly go for more RAM, but make sure the motherboard and bios support it, some don't like working with large amounts and will in fact slow your computer down. Hard drives are now very large and very cheap, a 300Gb drive will set you back £70. DVD re-writers are very cheap, £24 for a 16X. You don't need to go for the latest PCI + graphics card costing an arm and a leg either, a decent quality card which is more than adequate for 2D graphics and a bit of 3D shouldn't cost you more than £80. Make sure the power supply is up to the job, many are underpowered and will shut down or worse if overstressed, more is better here, 400 - 500 Watts. Assuming you don't intend updating your monitor you should be able to build a very useable PC for £400 or less using quality branded components, you may find some of the components in your old machine can be re-used. I have built many computers for myself and others, quite a few are used for graphics with no problems whatever, none use top of the range and expensive Intel CPU's, all use middle range AMD Athlon XP or 64 CPU's. (no, I'm not touting for business).

Check out PC component prices at the following web address.

http://www.ebuyer.com/customer/home/

nirofo.

Hi nirifo

My existing computer was built for me by a friend who is now unfotunately working down South and I doubt he would be able to help me out again. I have just found the receipt for the original components, so this is what is in my present PC (don't laugh!):p
ASUS A7SVM Motherboard for Athlon & Duron - onboard sound and graphics
128 Mb SDRAM (I think this has been doubled up to 256)
AMD Duron 700CPU
20 GB 5400 Hard Disk
Floppy Drive
WTY 100 COMP MIDI CASE 250 Watt
Inboard Modem (but now use external USB for ADSL)
Also has a "Trust" USB card to give me extra USB slots
Plus keyboard and Samsung 17" 172v Monitor
External Toshiba 160Mb hard Disc.

Not exactly Hi Tec but it has worked fine so far, but is beginning to struggle.

How can you learn to start to build your own PC - is there recommended books or classes?

Thanks for all your advice

Looks like the best way forward is to self build, but I don't have the knowledge.

Thanks again

Stuart R

Blimey. If you intend to keep that PC for a while, then as others have said, you really need to get some more memory. I used to have a similar spec machine, and I increased the memory from 512MB to 1GB, and the result was a massive speed increase.

Several colleagues built their own machine. They said it did not really work out cheaper, but they got the components they wanted. However, one had some problems with faulty components, which had to be exchanged. And he concluded that he could have done as well buying from someone like Mesh. Companies like Mesh and Watford allow you to choose from a range of components, which they assemble for you. It's probably the next best thing to self-build.

Leif

Hi Stuart R

Based on the specs you gave earlier your motherboard will support:

1.0Gb of PC133 unbuffered RAM, (2x512mb RAM Sticks). Ebuyer 512MB PC133 168pin SDRAM Memory Module, £78 for 2.

Up to AMD Athlon 1400 (200mhz FSB). EBays probably your only hope here, expect to pay £20 to £25. Make sure it's guaranteed working.

It has onboard 4x AGP graphics chip with no slot for a separate AGP card, this steals from your memory total, you would need to install a PCI Graphics card with it's own built in memory to go separate. Try the £27.57 Hightech 9250 128MB 64bit PCI from EBuyer.

It supports up to Ultra DMA/100, large drives can be used with appropriate drive overlay. The Hitachi Deskstar T7K250 160GB 7200RPM ATA/133 8MB Cache - OEM again from EBuyer is a good drive at £38.58.

It only supports USB1, to use USB2 you need to install a separate USB2 PCI card with the necessary driver software. These cards are cheap, try the 4 PORT USB 2.0 PCI CARD WITH 1 X INTERNAL PORT at £3.98 from EBuyer.

It has built in reasonable quality audio, just add powered speakers, or play back through your HiFi unit.

If you increase the memory to max you will probably need to upgrade your power supply, here's one that will do the trick - Casecom Silver 500w ATX Power Supply at £13.99 from EBuyer.

Based on your spec the computer is easily upgradeable and would show a decent performance gain if it was maxed out using similar components to those indicated above. Whether it's worth spending the money on components that are rapidly becoming obsolete is debateable, for approx £185 you would have a useable computer capable of handling large graphics files, rendering may still be slower than the top spec PC's but what's the rush anyway!

Heres a web address for the motherboard manual, bios and sound driver updates are also available.

ftp://dlsvr02.asus.com/pub/ASUS/mb/s.../a7svm-103.pdf

ftp://dlsvr02.asus.com/pub/ASUS/mb/s...-vm/1006vm.zip

ftp://dlsvr02.asus.com/pub/ASUS/misc.../s71812wxp.zip

nirofo.

I was considering going down the self build route as I'm thinking the time has come for an upgrade and CS2 & Bridge struggle a bit - particularly Bridge when asked to cache 100+ RAW files that have just been uploaded (currently using AMD Thunderbird 1Ghz with 1Gb RAM).

I have two local PC shops (dont expect "proper" advice in PC World) who have been recommended to me. I went into one about a week ago and they are happy to either build to my spec or design & supply components for me to build - am I'm just waiting for them to come back to me with a recommendation and prices. I'm thinking of building something around an AMD Athlon 64 3500+/3800+ socket 939 but need a recommendation of motherboard - anyone any suggestions what might have good compatibility :confused:

Also this shop is recommending IDE hard drives rather than SATA - anyone got views on that :confused:

Then yesterday I went into the second shop. Their approach is either they will build for me, or if I have a list of components they will supply (although they admitted that I would be able to source more cheaply off the net), but they won't recommend a spec. Apparently they use to but have got into problems when a customer had a faulty motherboard or damaged it through mis-installation (who knows which) so now they don't. Me thinks they are touting for the build business themselves but no. His actual recommendation for a non games machine with primary power application being Photoshop/Bridge was a Dell Dimension 5150 Pentium dual core 2.8Ghz processor, 512 Mb RAM (yes would need to increase to 1/1.5Gb £25/50), 160Gb SATA hard drive (would want to add a second 160Gb ~£40 300Gb ~£70)& 256Mb graphics, DVD writer, 7 x USB - £520 with 3 year ON SITE warranty. He reconed that he could not built to that spec for that price and even then I would only have a 1 yr warranty!

So now I'm in a bit of a quandry. The self build route has attractions, pay for just what I want, use some of existing components (eg Hard drives) to keep initial cost down, potentially could upgrade processor/mobo and leave everything else to a later date :D but then the 3 year on site warranty has got to be worth something :confused:

Decisions, decisions

"Also this shop is recommending IDE hard drives rather than SATA - anyone got views on that"

Sounds like they have some old motherboards that support PATA rather than SATA lying around. :D My understanding is that SATA drives are faster, due to faster i/o to and from the motherboard, and I think that you can add more. With PATA you are usually limited to a total of four internal optical/hard drives.

Nirofo makes some very good points and it might be the route to take. But also check out what new systems you can get for the price i.e. ~£200. Sometimes obsolete systems are available very cheaply.

Leif

Hi Gidders

Here's a list of components that won't cost you an arm and a leg and will give you a reasonable spec, this is for box only, no monitor, no mouse, no keyboard! All the components were sourced from EBUYER.COM, quick find codes are included. I have built many computers to this spec for various types of work including serious graphics manipulation, all work well with no speed bottlenecks.

nirofo.

Hi Stuart R

You asked:
"One of the things is to change your pagefile so that it is the right size for your memory - the default is often not. You can get quite a leap in performance if you do this." - how do I check this please.

I am not sure which operating system you are running, but for Windows XP, NT, 2000, etc., right click "my computer", select "properties", click the "Advanced" tab, under "performance" click "settings, then select the "Advanced" tab. Then you should see the current pagefile size under "Virtual memory". If you need to change it, then click "change" but bear in mind the following:

1. Windows Help says: "For best performance, do not set the initial size to less than the minimum recommended size under Total paging file size for all drives. The recommended size is equivalent to 1.5 times the amount of RAM on your system. Usually, you should leave the paging file at its recommended size, although you might increase its size if you routinely use programs that require a lot of memory."

2. You can mess your machine up if you are not careful - so take good care when changing any of these settings that you are certain it is appropriate to do so, and that you are changing it to an appropriate value.

Press F1 for Windows Help and type in "virtual memory" as the search string and this will give you a lot more information. There are lots of conflicting opinions about optimising virtual memory - Google is a good resource.

Hollis_f is right to recommend you buying more RAM and I agree with all that nirofo says too. It won't likely be worth changing your virtual memory unless you buy a new PC because the default settings you already have set are probably already adequate for the RAM you have.

I hope that helps!
Didi

Gidders

I agree with Leif that anyone trying to persuade you to go PATA rather than SATA is simply trying to shift older motherboards that don't support SATA!

I use SATAs in all my machines and favour the Maxtor Diamondmax SATA-300 drives (I have 4 x 300 Gb). They are a bit pricey, but they are so fast I am quite happy to pay extra. However, they can be a bit temperamental and will, from time to time, throw up errors which I have so far been able to fix using chkdsk. I just make sure to keep them regularly defragmented and they work fine.

Cheers
Didi