The Champagne shot
 

The Champagne shot
About three weeks ago I saw a competition in the magazine “Amateur Photographer” with the theme being “celebration”. And the first prize is a Nikon D80 kit (as some of you know the D80 is on my shopping list for next year) So I had long hard think about what photo I was going to take, I thought about Celebration of life! But I didn’t know any young ladies that were about to have a baby and even if I did know somebody they were hardly going to let me photograph them:o
I also thought on the lines of some sort of sport shot i.e. a goal, wining a race etc, But with the weather as it is I would have to have been very lucky to find a good scene to photograph.
So I decided that a cork flying out of a Champagne bottle was the shot I wanted, a lot easier said then done (Like how many bottles would I get through to get the shot?) This wasn’t going to be a cheap and easy project. Before I tell you about the shot, There is some good news and bad, bad news. First the good news, for all you lovers of Champagne, No Champagne was wasted or spilled, as a matter of fact none was used, which brings me to the bad news, because no Champagne was used I didn’t get to drink any:mad:
The second bad news, Is for all you Lemonade drinkers, Lots of cheap Lemonade got wasted, spilled and generally abused:D . Right before I tell all, My family and friends (who know how these shot were taken) have asked me to ask you, Do you really want to know how the shot was taken, It’s like, We all want to know how a woman gets sawn in half, but once we know it seems to spoil the affect! And wasn’t it fun when we all believed in Santa Clause, then when we were told Santa was not real (I know some of you still believe in Santa, sorry It was me who let the secret out;) ) Christmas’s are just not the same knowing Santa was really our dad!
So the question is Do you really want to know how a woman is sawn in half, i.e. how the Lemonade flowed
Lello

To little to late "Hic Hic" I thought you did it with real champagne "Hic Hic" :( 20 bottles later " Hic Hic":confused: I still didn't get a photograph "Hic Hic" :p but I am a raving alcoholic, why didn't didn't you say at the time it was only lemonade and save my liver "Hic Hic":D

If I do this again I will use real Champagne, But I'm going to need some help clearing up the dregs in the bottom of the bottles, Are volunteering Christine?

I did the pictures of the bottle on a clean plastic sheet, "Hic Hic" which ran off into a bucket to be drunk. I had all the champagne and the dregs as well:D :D . But always willing to help a fellow camera person now that I am an alcoholic.

Lello,

My opinion is the secret is best kept for now. Trust me my brain is 110% engaged in working this one out. :D

Even if/when I do work it out I would not post without your OK. I knew it was not Champagne from the off, hence spending 10-15 mins on the pic, but still do not know how you did it. As I said in my comment VERY VERY clever stuff, WELL DONE.

Don

Don
The funny thing Is that I was going to ask for your help regarding the lighting,
When I realized I had to take the shots indoors I knew the lighting was going to be a problem, and I'm still not happy with the end result, As I am limited with with no real lighting equipment (only three remote flash guns) and at the moment no spare room I can use (all three kids still live at home) What I needed was your studio, but the Idea of getting lemonade all over you place and the distance to travel it wouldn't have been a good idea. I can't even turn off the pre flash on my FZ30 which makes the on board flash redundant when taking indoor still life shots so I'm very limited with flash photography.
I will keep my secret for a bit (to see if I can sell the idea to a company that promotes Champagne :) ) Thanks again for making me think outside the box.

Lello,

If you post info on your remote flash guns and how they are triggered I will look at DPR to understand your FZ30. I am sure your preflash will not be a problem in overall exposure provided you are able to use full manual.

Lemonade all over my lathe and mill :eek: :eek:

Don

Don I have looked into pre flash on FZ30 (spoke to the guys on the Panasonic forum) it will always pre flash and the old cheap slave units will not ignore the pre flash, I will let you know what the flash guns are (I bought them second hand after I started reading your " flash photography daunting or fun" thread.

Lello,

We have just got to think of the pre flash as a trigger mechanism for the other flash units. I never ever have a flash on camera other than for the behind the scenes shots. Pre flash would be lost in the output from your remote units.

Off to bed now. I will catch up with this tomorrow.

Don

If your remote flashes are triggered by the slave, then the pre flash is the disaster that needs to be address first before you can actually use them. On the other hand if you have cable sync set up then you should be find.

Lello, if you need the pre-flash to set off your other slave flashes I may be able to help. I used the top of a canister in white the same density as a diffuser, on one side I used black duck tape to mask it out totally. I pop it over the on camera flash with the black side facing forward this throws the light backward which doesn't effect the exposer but still triggers the slaves. You can also use it turned round white forward to act a diffused light.

Reading Sassans comment and doh :o :o Shutter would still be closed at time of pre flash. Got to get my head round this new technology.

I will read DPR review of FZ30 now then see if pre flash available on D100 to experiment with.

Don

I have now managed to find a download of FZ30 manual. I will read through and be back.

Don

Lello,

Just been taking a crash course on the FZ30. The only thought I have is a very low powered flashgun mounted on the hotshoe, Page 97 of the manual, and using this to trigger your other flash guns provided camera does not try a preflash through that . If you have a flash that operates at less than a trigger voltage of 24volt you can give it a try.
Set on camera flash to manual minimum power and slave flash to maximum. If the shot is seriously underexposed then camera is pre flashing through the hotshoe gun as well as pop up. If exposure OK or overexposed then a weak hotshoe mounted unit can be used as a trigger.

The best non internet deal I have found is Jessops 100M. This has a low guide number of 10 for £10:99. As most pop ups have a guide no of around 15 this is a nice weak unit to act as a trigger. Should not affect exposure unless the camera is sitting on top of the subject. :)

Don

Christine Thats the problem I'm having, My Fz30 fires a pre-flash to monitor the lighting conditions then sets up the cam just before the main flash,
therefor when the pre-flash fires the slave flashes also fire, the Cam then monitors the amount of light and closes the lens, So when the main flash fires and the shot is taken I get very under exposed shot. Don, The slave flashes I have are, no 1 Wotan sc18 servo! no 2 Topca 325b!
No 3 Is a Yinyan cy32twz twin thyristor flash the Yinyan is not a slave It's what I use as my main flash to fire the slaves as I said These were bought second hand a very good price. The reason I bought the 3rd flash is that it is very low Voltage (FZ30's need no more than 12 volts I think) other wise they fry! I'm thinking, If the slave flashes were quick they would also fire twice once on pre flash then main flash, But that will never happen as I said they are cheap as chips.

Pre flash is 0.8 second or less before shutter opens. Even a Quantum Turbo battery pack could not cope with recycling in that time, even with most expensive flash guns, unless power output is really turned down for strobe effect.

Don

Lello. I don't know the camera and what can be switched on and off, but can you switch off red eye, this maybe the same as the pre flash.

Hi Don I was writing my last thread as you posted yours,you're right about the voltage (24volts) The reason I mentioned my on board flash is, If I could've sorted that out I would then have three salve flashes to give me extra flexibility I would have bought I sensor for the yinyan. But I wouldn't worry about it don When I get the D80 I will have a rethink about my whole equipment.

Christine unfortunately I can't turn pre flash off at all on my cam, That's why I bought a cheap flash unit to use to fire slaves As mentioned to Don I'm not going to worry about it for now, I will have to do with the main flash and two slaves for now and spend more time setting up the shots, And only use the on board flash if and when needed.

Lello,

If your mind is made up on the D80 then widely advertise SC-28 off camera lead on your Christmas wish list. I have the SC-17 its earlier incarnation, and could not live without it. Used in all my stuff. All your existing flashes will be good as remotes.

I will see if the manual is available as a download so I understand answers before you ask the questions. :D

Don

Is the question you're waiting for about the voltage for the D80 and can I use that lead with my flash guns? I know that the "Topca 325b!" has got a very high voltage output and I take it, If it's to high for the D80 I won't even be able to use it with the SC-28 lead?

Lello,

In short any flash with a high trigger voltage cannot be connected safely to ANY electronic camera by whatever means.

When I get a moment I will take the front off an old mechanical camera so you can see the lump of copper that is the flash contact.

I have downloaded the D80 manual but have not had a read through yet to see if there is a specified max trigger voltage. With the D100 I did a test, and the pop up does do a preflash whereas my SB80 trips my remote guns fine when used with SC-17 lead.

It is still possible that your Yinyan cy32twz will be fine with the lead. Do you know its trigger voltage off the top of your head ?

Don

Lello;

You did not pay attention to the second part of my reply. Just turn off the D80's (When you get it, hopefully in mater of days), flash. Use a off camera hotshoe flash sync cable (These are cheap and last a life of useful service including macro etc). Use a cheap and not a TTL flash on this (If cable is TTL, that hopefully is for other situations). Now everything is manual and your other flashes will fire perfectly with the first shutter curtain, so no problem what so ever.

Christine's partially dampening the pre flash light is also smart. However due to under exposed reading of light, your on camera's flash will probably shot at max out put that if right for the given situation, should cause no harm or other wise you may over expose by fire of this flash.

Its great to have Don here. My endless solute.

Don
The Yinyan was sold as a flash unit for the FZ30 (because of the voltage output) so it must be at very most 24 volts. I will see if I can find the paperwork for the yinyan to see if the trigger voltage is mentioned

Sassan
Can you explain TTL, in layman's term?

Very similar to the TTL (Through the lens) sensor for general light measurement, the newer cameras have TTL capability for flash light measurement. So either the flash out put is measured that way on auto TTL mode or that pre flash, flash could help in this kind of measurement apart from probable focusing assistant as the case may be. So if your external flash is a dedicated, TTL one, a TTL cable (The hot shoe has several pins instead of only one single central pin for manual ones), it still can exhibit that pre shutter release flash, therefore firing and discharging all other remote flashes on the slave.

Oh another bypass is to use wireless (Radio wave) trigger and slave. Needless to say this is expensive, power hungry and not my kind of stuff.

Lello,

I must watch ' Planet Earth ' too much wonderful filming of nature. If Sassan does not answer I will be back later.

Don

Don enjoy the show if you can.:)

sassan/Don
So when I finally buy the D80 (in the new year now) is it worth investing in a TTL flash unit or will what I have be alright to keep me going for a while.
PS with the Dollar against the Pound it might worth me coming over the pond to buy a D80 over there

My quick general purpose answer is "Surly yes".
I would say buy the flash synchronization cable no mater what.
Auto mode on these flashes take away a lot of time consume in calculations or trial and errors. But the best person to answer this is Master of light, Don.

I am not sure of exact compatibility but here is one example cable and flash:
L I N K O N E
L I N K T W O
The auction description indicate earlier modle Nikons, you may want to ask the seller about compatibality to D80.

If you can get hold of a voltmeter, you can check it yourself by measuring across the contacts with the flash turned on. If you do this though, be very careful not to touch the contacts or the meter's probes whist connected. I gave up measuring my old Panasonic flashgun's trigger voltage once it went past 300V DC. I still use it with a remote slave trigger though.

Lello,

Electronic flash is quite a large subject, but with the wide range of flash guns on the market both new and used it does help to understand a little of the development history.

MANUAL : The most basic units have only one output level and have a calculator that when ASA/ISO is dialed in, the appropriate f setting can be read off from the distance scale. Most units from the late 60's / early 70's are of this type.
AUTO : A development from the manual unit, in that greater control of exposure was available automatically, provided the subject was reasonably within the range of the auto setting chosen. Thyristors enabled very fast switching and by adding a sensor to the flash gun to read reflected light, the flash output could be quenched when exposure was deemed by the sensor to be correct. Far less accurate distance calculation was needed so this was a considerable advance on manual. You still needed to set ISO and read off the scale and set lens aperture though. Basic units had 1 auto setting and others like the Vivitar 283 had 4 auto settings.
TTL : With the advent of electronics in camera bodies camera manufacturers came up with TTL. In TTL a sensor in the camera body recorded correct exposure usually off the film and signalled for the flash to be quenched. This allowed for accurate exposure with extension tubes, filters etc and was more accurate than auto.
DEDICATED : Most camera manufacturers introduced dedicated units. These units were specific to certain camera's within the product range, and not suited to use on other manufacturers cameras. Units were generally TTL but not always. Lower end units retained a sensor on the flash. Dedicted flash overcame the problem of forgetting to set appropriate shutter speed in auto or program modes. Turn the flash on and the electronics recognised it and set sync speed.

By now anyone with a compact camera could be excused for laughing, and saying I just point and shoot no problem. How come SLRs can't. :D :D

Next stage of development is probably the result of manufacturers luring those same people into the purchase of SLR, lenses etc. Simple flash use for family snaps was an essential nut to be cracked. Advances in the electronics that could be built into cameras and lenses was the way forward.

I can now only speak of Nikon as I have no knowlege of other systems.

As part of its 3D matrix metering Nikon added distance communication between body and lens with the ' D ' series lenses. Introduced to go with the D1 series and D100 cameras Nikon brought out ' DTTL ' flash with two flash units SB50DX and SB80-DX. When you turn the flash on the camera recognises the flash unit and sets appropriate shutter speed, and passes back to the flash unit the camera ISO and lens distance setting. Zoom the lens and the flash unit automatically zooms in the case of SB80-DX. As the camera knows the subject distance and the flash output power in use, it selects the appropriate aperture. So now the SLR flash system as far as point, shoot, and forget has exceeded that of a compact camera due to the output power of flash units available.

Clever as it is, DTTL only survived for a couple of years, and was superceeded by the superior ITTL, and the SB80-DX and SB50-DX were replaced by the SB-800 and SB-600 respectively. At this point Nikon added wireless remote unit for macro to which SB-800 and/or SB600 can be added, with full automatic control of exposure as the wireless system communicates between the camera meter and the individual units in use.

All this modern kit is capable of an incredibly wide range of options/settings between press and forget, and manual. Instruction book for the SB80-DX is 105 pages and my Metz 45CTL if I could find it might run to 10 pages.

Now for the Nikon D80. Nikon system flash guns that will give ITTL ( the latest all singing and dancing totally auto control ) are SB-800 and SB-600. SB-600 has a lower guide number and a few limitations in modes other than ITTL.

Non ITTL on D80 but allowing more options : SB80-DX, SB-28DX, SB-28, SB-26, SB-25, SB-24
Fewer options than above : SB-30, SB22s, SB-22, SB-20, SB16B, SB15
Fewer options still : SB50-DX, SB-23, SB-29, SB21-B, SB-27, SB-29s

I have not mentioned the independant manufacturers units as I do not know where they sit in the hierarchy listed above.

As for remote lead, Foxy sent me a pic of his SC-28 to compare with my SC-17. The difference appears to be that the SC-28 has a locking pin when attached to the camera, and the lead exits to one side, whereas SC-17 has no lock and the lead exits from the front.

On the subject of trigger voltage there does not appear to be a specific max stated by Nikon, so I checked on Nikons own flash guns. From the SB-15 ( 1980's ) onwards all seem to 5V or less with one exception SB-50DX reaching 6V. Make your own mind up from this but it does suggest 6V is safe max.

Don

Sassan,

This is a nature program with the most amazing photography. The dedication of the photographers to getting the images is incredible. So yes I did enjoy it very much.
A re-read of the above and I thought I needed more time to hopefully provide a more in depth answer to Lello, so waited for today.

Only hope it all makes sense.

Don

Don As you changed Foxy Bob's name, We might have to change your name to Lighting Don.
All this make so much more sense to me now, I had a rough idea what all the flash terms meant, But you've made it much easier for me to understand. It now means that the Yinyan flash I'm using now is probably no good for the
D80, (I will check the output Voltage) But I think it is higher than V,
Which is OK,When I get the D80 I will then be on the lookout for for a new flash gun/lead and as I'm not selling the FZ30 I can still keep the flash unit.
Thanks again Don for your help, (Out of curiosity I will let you know about the Yinyan Voltage)

:D :D

Perhaps I should own up to having a crash read of SB80-DX manual the evening before Foxy came just in case of tricky questions on modes other than manual. In this case IN THE DARK Don. :D

Alway glad to be of help Lello. I was getting a bit worried by the length of the post as I typed it, so happy you found it useful.

Don

By the way Don any luck in finding out how the "Champagne shot" was done?
Are you still thinking about it or have you given up?

This may be a little off topic but before my last visit to Don's I was settled with i-TTL but some of the more interesting features we have photographed require manual in some degree or other. The last two shoots I have done totally by manual flash, its was not difficult at all and I felt more in control of the lighting.

My vote for a name for Don is Flash Gordon, think of the theme to the 1980 film by Queen..."Flash arhah - saved every one of us" :D

Flash GorDON it is:) I take it It's more trial and error with manual flash? And can the SB-600 be set to manual?

Lello,

I have been diverted from my 110% attention by YOU :D

No I have not given up. Just have not got round to it. :)

Watch this S... P ... A ... C ... E

Don