Is it ethical ? How far can one go?
 

Hi there folks, please answer if you have a comment or opinion to this question. I was very kindly bought a couple of books for christmas, both on the subject of macrophotography. Having a quick glance through the one, by Ross Hoddinott, a passage caught my eye and I immediately thought it un-ethical, if not completely wrong. The passage is as follows:-
"I carefully placed this moth in a plastic container and left it in the fridge for a few minutes. I then gently placed the insect on a stone and photographed it, before returning it to where it had been discovered."

I dont care how carefull a person is, surely any risk to a living creature is an un-necessary risk, and other top photographers I've read discourage this kind of practise.

What I want to know is, what do other people who have an interest in photography think. Am I too sentimental, or should we get the picture no matter what?

Needles to say the book has got off to a bad start.
Regards, Dean.

That is something I would never do.

I have placed insects in an open container with bits from their envornment. Photographed with flash so no stress from heat generated by lamps and then released. Only applies to things from the garden. I would not do that from another environment.

Don

I understand that this sort of thing goes on alot Dean.

I tend to go for the in situ shot. The only things I am guilty of is a spot of gardening (removing twigs etc) or a slight nudge ( if the insect will allow me ) for a better pose.

It's absolutely unacceptable to stress an animal in any way for private or commercial photography (I'm not getting into debate about scientific study). A simple rule is: if there's a chance of causing stress then back off.

I suppose a lot depends on your circumstances. If you are a hobbyist, then I understand the morals and would regard chilling insects purely for the photo as perhaps a step too far. If you are a professional, who's living depends on getting the images you have been commissioned to produce, then the boundaries are somewhat different. Do you put an insect at minimal risk by chilling it, or do you risk not feeding yourself and your family that month?

Many insects get killed every time you drive (or are driven) down a road, or use any form of public transport. Whilst such deaths are not deliberate, they are avoidable by walking everywhere. There is a balance between achieving your goals, whether it's getting from A to B or getting that photo, and the risk to other forms of life. All activities pose risks to other creatures and the creature performing the activity, it is up to each individual to decide where the trade-off lies.

Duncan

Yelvertoft, good arguments - you've now got me in a mental turmoil! For me, it would be difficult to know where to draw the line in causing deliberate stress, so I'll keep to my simplistic approach, but perhaps I'll have more sympathy with others.

Putting an insect in the fridge for a few minutes shouldn't cause any physical harm It's really much the same as the insect goes through when temps dip at night. The same thing is done for snakes. I understand that a lot of the wildlife film/pictures we see in the media are staged in artificial conditons. It's really the same principle and has the same ethical question.
I've never done it but I wouldn't be too concerned about cooling an insect for a few minutes in order to get a picture.

Hi I photograph insects all the time, especially when running a moth trap. It is a given standard that no insect or animal is put under any stress and the practise of "chilling" insects is a real no no!

Whilst Duncans arguments are sound re daily dangers it should be born in mind that many of the larger Moths or Macros have declined in numbers and many are down by some 30-40%.

Chilling an insect puts it under stress. The animal will beat its wings rapidly in order to maintain body temparature and flight muscles. Chilling them weakens them and leaves them vulnerable to attack.

Whilst I am sure many photographers using this method would place the insect in undergrowth to protect it afterward they are still very vulnerable to predation.

Any insect caught for the purpose of photography should be placed in a roomy box with some egg cartons to hide in and released at night.

Butterflys should never be chilled and realeased as they are more vulnerable to predation. They should be photographed at source. That is Study the insect, get to know its habits and more than anything be "PATIENT".

OK off my soap box!!
Regards
Nogbad

Now you know to what lengths some of the semi / pro photographers will go to to get the shot they want, especially if it's to be used commercially. You should see what some of the so-called pro bird photographers get up to when they think nobody is watching them, (sometimes even when they are being watched), if it's a rarity then there are no holds barred.

nirofo.

Thank you all folks for taking the time to respond.

Nirofo, i dread to think what some "pro's" may do.

I think that it is another topic that is open to the individual, and what they deem to be acceptable. It concerns me though, when a "professional" such as Mr. Hoddinott, can print this and any novice photographer/ wildlife enthusiast can then assume it is perfectly acceptable to do likewise.

I may kill insects whilst driving my car but this does not open the door for me to stress, injure or worse, kill any creature just so I have a good image.

It really is frustrating to try and get a good image of an insect, they're small and move quick. (well far faster than I can move.)

BUT!!! When we do get a good shot, a good image that is acceptably sharp throughout, with the insect in it's natural habitat, is that not where the enjoyment really lies?

Cheers folks, Dean.

I don't know if there is any logic to this observation. I have found that if you have disturb a settled flying insect, rather chase after it you quietly wait at the same spot it more often than not returns to the same area. Then you can be ready to get the shot.

There is a large community of Moth enthusiasts on BF,and apparently it seems to be a common practise trapping these creatures in Moth Traps,and then despatching to a fridge overnight,everyone concerned does say that it does no harm to the Moths,but I am not so sure.Removing and insect,creature from it's natural habitat,will surely cause some stress,and as for the habits of so called "rarity" bird photographers,the less said the better,these people are not true bird lovers at all,just want their "tick" at any cost,to some poor bird who has flown thousands of miles to find a safe haven,then these guys "flush" the bird from its place of hiding,just so that they can put a tick in a little black book,not very nice people at all.

I think that for common insects there is no ethical problem. An insect is a primitive creature, and killing one or two is not a problem. Many more will splat on your windscreen, or get eaten by a Hobby and other predators. So one more is neither here nor there.

As to whether or not they are sentient to any degree, I suspect not, but who knows. My own experience is that insects display simple stereotypical behaviour, with no evidence of intelligence.

Personally I don't like the practise of chilling insects. I have seen at least one picture of a chilled dragonfly win a major UK prize, and to me it is cheating. You are photographing an insect in an artificial environment, possibly posing in an artificial manner. And if the practise catches on, then we will have hoards of copy cat amateur photographers catching insects, some of which might be rare.

Surely, as Dean says, the appeal and challenge of nature photography is to work out techniques to photograph wild creatures in their natural habitat.

Nirofo has intrigued me with his comments. I wonder what sort of things the more competitive get up to?

Just playing devil's advocate here, but what's the difference in chilling your insect and finding a 'pre-chilled' one first thing in the morning. Are we just effronted that someone doesnt share our work ethic, and feel they should put some work into getting the image instead of lying in bed for and extra hour or two?;)

Gordon, I appreciate your view re chilled in the morning and chilled in the fridge to an extent.

There is a difference! During the summer, temperatures do not drop so far that the majority of insects cannot fly in some manner to escape predators.

Also bear in mind that when insects retire at night they pick the best site which will offer them the highest protection and camoflage available, (try finding dragonflys first thing in the morning! Very difficult!!)

Moths lay up in the day and releasing them after photographing during the day usually result in predation.

Predators are very savvy as to where and when insects or a viable food source are available.

As a Moth recorder the birds in my garden very soon realised there were rich pickings to be had if any of my captures escaped when emptying the trap. I now have to release in different areas and time to avoid the sparrows, Robins etc from taking advantage.

What is paramount here is our effect on the species. Wildlife, especially insects have declined dramatically in the last 10 years through our interference and impact on their environment. We really need to consider their welfare even if they are only just an insect and appear inconsequential in our scheme of things.

It is up to us as photographers and our responsibility to cause as little impact to the wildlife we nedd for the making of our images.

Nogbad

What Nogbad said. And ...

Insects have strategies for surviving the night. They adopt a resting posture on suitable vegetation, and in the morning the sun warms them so they can become active again. If you release a cold insect at mid day, it is vulnerable to predation from active creatures. If you go to a site before sunrise, and take pictures, as long as you take care, you cause no harm.

But for me it is all about honesty. A chilled insect posed on a twig is not demonstrating authentic behaviour. Who knows if that insect would ever have posed on that vegetation in that manner. The photographer is creating a fake.

But if the insect is photographed against a plain background with no pretence, that's fine by me. (As long as the insect is common of course.)

Similarly a photo of a captive bird, or a zoo animal is less appealing to me. Though I have seen nice pictures, including on WWF, of captive animals. As long as the photographer makes it clear the animal is captive.

CAn't help feeling that the Pro & Con arguments here are mostly speculation coloured by personal opinion.

That the problem with ethics, self interest and on which side of the fence you sit. Personally I have nothing to gain by cooling an insect and it strikes me as being more hassle that snaping the beast on the twig insitu. For me it's just a hobby and I take the view if I miss a shot then it was never meant to be.

Dont misunderstand me, I actually agree with Lief and Nogbad's views on welfare of your subject - both put clearly and succinctly too, thank you!
I was just intrigued by the reference to 'cheating'.
My own view on that is honesty matters - just as with images of captive animals. If this is declared, I view the image differently to a 'wild' shot. ie purely from an aesthetic viewpoint rather than as a 'natural history' image.

I appreciate this thread very much. I have never chilled an insect in order to photograph it but was considering doing so. I am rarely satisfied with my insect shots and read that many of the ones that I'm am envious of, were taken using the chill method. This thread has given me lots of food for thought.

My wife and I have both photgraphed dragonflies. We have never chilled the insects as we didn't realise that it was done. Using fiedcraft and patience (Trisha spent nearly five hours taking a series of photos of a dragonfly's emergence) is most rewarding and taking a chilled insect would seriously diminish the satisfaction. Although we couldn't define it, chilling would somehow be 'cheating'.

It seems from the majority of the comments from members that photographing the insect in natural settings is the most prefered method,being honest and beneficial means to the insects.

If we all take our images in this manner then both ourselves and our natural subjects are the winners!

Nogbad

I saw a lot of dragonfly photos last year on from a couple of people on a group that were absolutely stunning. Perfectly posed, superb lighting, background in balance with subject, great shadow details, little touches of water on wings etc, etc. One shot or maybe two a year, but week after week, image after image? However, they were done they were amazing images of natures beauty.

For myself I take what I see where I see it with the equipment I have. I find that in most cases, execept for some Hawkers that never bleedin well settle, one can get pretty close, at least to within a few inches, you can also shift your position too.

To each his/her own at least they aren't yanking out the critter's genitalia to determine ID.

Walwyn, your comments are valid and it is perfectly achievable to get excellent images just by stalking, being patient, and knowing your subject.

I find binoculars are a great way to watch insects, you can study their behaviour for a while especially as the majority are territorial. They often follow the same flight patterns land on the same branch, stalk or flower and so you can anticipate where they will land etc.

It is so much more preferable to catching the insects and removing them from their environment.

Nogbad

I saw one beautiful photograph of a rare dragonfly (Emarald) taken by a well known pro who had watched the insect for over an hour, figured out that it would occasionally settle for a brief period on some vegetation, and then got the photo. Waiting several hours and/or luck seems to be the norm for the larger dragonflies.

I recommend Close-up on Insects by Robert Thompson. Beautiful pictures, useful information, and not one chilled insect.

I don't suppose birds are too fussy when it comes to taking insects for food, they don't have the luxury of scruples when it comes to survival. Millions are taken daily in their quest for food, especially during the breeding season. They don't care whether the insects being stressed or not, they don't care if it's a scarce species, if it's available then it's food!

Here's a photo of a male Stonechat with a Cream-spot Tiger Moth, (at least I think that's what it is), this bird and it's mate were in and out like yoyo's every few minutes, feeding their young with all different types of insect and other creepy crawlies. Photo was from the car window resting the lens on a bean bag.

nirofo.

Since opening this thread I've read more of the book and Mr. Hoddinott does redeem himself, stressing that any harm or danger to any creature is not what photography is about, my words not his. After reading comments from others a link in the book that you may find interesting is www.butterfly-conservation.org. There are some points of interest for all with an interest in insects, even where to go to raise your own. (Just remember a divorce is most expensive .)

Ive learned from this thread, so a big thank you to all that contributed.

Regards, Dean.

Hi Dean glad you have learned something. I can recommend joining the BCS it is well worth it. They supply lots off info etc.

Nogbad

fishingruddy I understand what you feel..???
It is something like "what is life for one is food for others"
Personally speaking I won't do that..???

Chilling an insect in the fridge is something I have done in the past and probably something I will do in the future. these insects have always flown away after a couple of minutes and seem no worse for their experience.

Would suggest you have a read here

http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1G1-14949844.html

Harry

Whilst I appreciate in any discussions there are arguments for and against and would never berate anyone for any practise they use, there is one point most people seem to be missing.

When peiople chill these insects they have quite often been netted/captured and taken out of their natural habitat. To release the insect after you have phtotographed it is almost as bad as consigning the insect to certain death.

If you release an insect somewhere which is not its natural habitat it will stand out like a sore thumb and is bound to be picked of.

This is where I feel we have a responsibilty both to the insects and our ecology.

How many photographers take insects home photograph them, then take them back to where they were taken from? Not many I suspect.

We have a varied and unique fauna which is disapearing all the time with our activities, pollution, impact on the ecology of our natural resources, etc.

As a photographer and conservationist my main responsibilty will always be to protect the fauna and flora.

The article on chilling, compelling as it may be fails to point out there are many insects which do not respond well to chilling, and will have an adverse effect on the insect.

It is all well and good for this process to happen naturally in the wild, i.e low tempratures, make insects torpid but they have coping and survival mechanisms in place to protect them under these circumstances.

When we interfere in these matters we are exposing them to unecessary stresses. I would much prefer to lose sleep and go out at first light looking for the insects in their natural environment than capture, chill then release the insect in a foreign environment.

Interesting discussion.

Nogbad

The counter argument made by collectors is that it is very unlikely that you will have caught a rare insect. However, on the off chance that you have, if the act of you collecting it is such that the species becomes endangered in that location then the species was doomed anyway.

Erm... I hate to say this but insects aren't warm-bodied.

In fact if you climb high enough into the atmosphere when it's cold enough you'll be able to find hundreds (maybe thousands) of frozen winged insects being carried by the wind. They get frozen by flying that high or being pulled upwards by updrafts.

Because their molecular structure is very different to us many can be frozen without a problem. Humans can't be frozen because we're mostly water and when you freeze water it expands and destroys cell walls.

As with humans (and many other species whether it's animal, vegetable or mineral) when the temperature drops the bodily functions slow down. Just that we can't [yet!] be frozen and thawed without serious damage.

Oh and I believe you shouldn't disturb the dust on the wings of moths and butterflies too much because it helps them fly - not sure about this bit tho.

(I must get my head out of Discovery Channel)

Please dont insult my intelligence!

I have been studying and conserving insect since a small lad and am very aware that insects are cold bloodied!!

I dont suppose you have ever noticed but even in the warmest of summers butterfly's, dragonflies moths etc, all are pretty much helpless until the sun has warmed them enough that their circulation is sufficient for them to start to fly.

If you have ever bred any of the many moths such as the larger hawk Moths, Noctuids, etc you will have seen they will vibrate their wings for a good 5-10 minutes before being able to fly. This is to ensure their circulation and body temprature is sufficient to maintain their flight and to prevent injury. very similar to us warming up before excercise.

yes many insects do get taken inro the atmosphere but many also die as they cannot survive the frezing experience. There are many insects that use the wind as a strategy to colonise other areas spiders use their silk to do this as well as other insects, however it is always a lottery as to whether they are taken high enough to survive.

Dont beleive everything you see or hear on discovery channel. How about getting out and discovering things for yourself?

Slightly miffed, Nogbad

Quite an aggressive attitude you have, don't you think?

Slightly [not] miffed but actually quite happy.

Why would I want to insult your intelligence?

A simple reply rather than that would suffice, don't you think? :rolleyes:

No Not agressive, just didnt appreciate the condescending tone.

Nogbad

Sincere apologies if it came across as condescending, believe me, that is definitely not how I intended it to seem.

Apology accepted. Please accept mine. It is always difficult when replying to threads as it's not always possible to appreciate the tone being conveyed. Something quite innocuous can be read in an enterly different manner.

Nogbad

I know how it goes, I usually try and be careful with what I type but I've been off work ill for the second week now and I've not been thinking straight all the time :(