WPF Censorship - POTW
 

Hi there all,
Last night I added some comments about the current Picture of the Week in the thread entitled "Discussion on Photo of the Week" - this morning I find they have been removed. These are the comments I made - you may or may not agree with them - but I feel I have a right to make them. I also feel that the thread - "DISCUSSION ON PHOTO OF THE WEEK" - is the correct place to make them

"Sorry Scott, I normally like your work and have said so in the past - but this is what you describe it as - a test shot with a new lens - ************! In the thread about POTW where some of us asked for explanations or pointers from the moderators - there was resistance - I challenge them now to describe to us the technical, artistic or photographic merits of this shot!!!! As you say it is a lens TEST SHOT.

In the thread "Sticking my neck out" http://www.worldphotographyforum.com...ead.php?t=3207 several asked for moderators pointers for beginners - this was rejected by them and that is their right also.

However - I do not think my comments are offensive .
IF YOU VISIT SCOTT'S WEB SITE YOU WILL SEE SOME EXCELLENT SHOTS - this one does not do him justice.

NOTE WELL: TO THOSE WHO SPOT DIFFERENCES IN THIS THREAD FROM TIME TO TIME PLEASE NOTE THAT I AM EDITING IT MYSELF -IT IS NOT BEING CENSORED - I HAVE TONED DOWN PARTS WRITTEN IN THE HEAT OF THE MOMENT - I NEVER INTEND TO UPSET PEOPLE BUT AM AWARE I SOMETIMES DO - I TRUST ALL MAY FIND MY COMMENTS CONSTRUCTIVE AS THAT IS ALWAYS THEIR INTENTION.

For once I will have to agree with you Andy. The same thoughts pasted through my mind when I saw the chosen image. No offense is intended but it would be interesting to see why it was thought the best of the bunch this week.

Andy, your original post is still there, must say I agree with your comments regarding this photo, but we are in the minority, as 12 others think it's great.
I guess 40 years of photography have taught me nothing :)

Harry

Each choice is going to be personal, and unless there is hive mindset, each choice will be controversial.

Move on.

I do not normally even look at the shot of the week but this thread made me curious so I have had a gander at the image in question. I have noticed a big shift lately into the type of image's that are being posted and commented on but if this is considered the 'shot of the week' then me thinks it could be time to move on as this is way beyond me :confused: :)

Dear Andy,

As Stephen posted in the “Sticking my Neck Out” thread,

The moderators choice POTW is selected as follows:-

Throughout the week we scan and keep a note of any photo(s) that we consider to be outstanding according to our own taste and interest. Each of us moderators then nominate ONE and if two or more moderators choose the same photo then its is declared as POTW. If there are no matches then we nominates our second choice, often one or more moderators second choice is a first choice of another moderator.

The simple fact is that each of the moderators has very different tastes, styles and opinions. We are not clones, we do not suppress our personal opinions in order follow central edicts, or hive mindset if you will, when choosing PoTW. As such, it has never been the case that I can recall so far that we have had a unanimous decision will all moderators agreeing on our first choice. As Stephen has explained, it is more usual that one moderators first choice is backed up as another’s second choice to win that week’s selection process. There have been times when no-one’s first choice has been selected and it has been entirely fought out on second choice with sometimes a third choice picture being brought into the mix for discussion. This is the nature of compromise and concession, qualities that are necessary in all walks of life if progress is to be made and decisions taken.

I cannot speak for others, but there have been selections picked for PoTW that have left me cold, do nothing for me (no names, no pack drill), but in the face of votes from others, I’ve had to let it be. I strongly suspect that the other mods have had to bite their lips at times too.

You, and others, have asked for justification from the moderators as to why a particular picture is chosen. As Stephen explained, it is according to our own taste and interest. Given the nature of the selection process, it is going to be very difficult for the moderators to put together a justification. Each moderator will almost certainly have very different opinions and ideas about why they like a particular picture, there are times when I cannot explain why I like a picture, shortlisted for PoTW or otherwise, I just do. There would be times when my input to the justification text would be “I can’t for the life of me understand why the other two like this, it leaves me completely cold”. I hope you can start to see the difficulties associated with your demands.

The act of trawling through an entire week’s gallery posts, and reviewing them to shortlist for PoTW is an extremely time consuming job, particularly so if we have been away for a few days, we do have jobs and other commitments in life. The discussion amongst the mods to thrash out our selections takes another few hours usually. If the masses then demand that we come up with a collective justification which all the mods agree on then that is several more hours of effort to put in.

Regardless of which picture is chosen for PoTW, as Robski and others have implied, it isn’t going to please everybody, as I’ve explained above, it may not even please all of the moderators. Any justification given will simply provide fuel for argument, negativity and division. Such discussion will simply build cliques and promote rival camps, your own comments on Scott’s “Scribbles” is one such example of this.

To quote a WPF member “It amazes me how touchy we can get sometimes”. I don’t care about the thought process behind a picture, or the equipment used; all I care about is the end result, I choose a picture that I like. I am not prepared to put several hours of my free time into the forum just to act as someone’s punchbag, I know other mods feel the same. This would be the overall effect if we were to provide justification for out PoTW choice. To paraphrase your sig file:
"We select pictures of what we like - if someone else likes them - that's a bonus"

That’s all the justification we need for PoTW, let’s leave it at that. Thank you.

Regards,

Duncan

Andy,

I can see your point here but I can also see it from the ‘mods’ point of view too. (Not the censorship point).

I believe you are correct that the point you made was a valid point from your personal assessment of the POTW. This is a ‘forum’ and as I understand that to mean, ‘an assembly or meeting place for the discussion or questions of our mutual interest’. In other words, an opportunity to express your points of view and likewise to enlighten ones self to alternative thoughts after perusing the views of others which may contradict your own.

I hence believe you are quite right to be questioning the removal of your point of view.

Alternatively; I believe the POTW was introduced as ‘another topic of interest’, on a weekly basis, to add further appeal to this forum. Also, it added a bit of ‘esteem’ to whomever it was awarded. I personally agree with the alternative view to that of yours; in that whoever wins, ‘good on em’, well done. The awarded pic may or may not be to my taste but it’s something I can look at and form my own views on why it was chosen. This is my view.

I also looked at it this way, maybe correctly, maybe not; and that was that if I were a ‘mod’ I’d be seriously thinking, after the ‘sticking my neck out again’ thread, well, never mind sticking my neck out; you can actually ‘stick this mod business where the sun don’t shine’! I’d be as sick as a parrot at the continual grief I was receiving for basically contributing a hell of a lot of my spare time to making this forum an improved place for everyone’s benefit.

I’ve recently been in dispute with the ‘mods’ over something I felt strongly about, but, I’ve now hopefully been able to take ‘a couple of steps backward’ and have assessed things from a distance. Was I as committed in my belief that I was right? Hell; I’ll say so. But now, with hindsight I may not have been as tactful, appreciative, and, dare I say it, respectful, (without being labelled as grovelling); as I could have been.

Going back to your topic; this weeks POTW. Are all our shots not ‘test shot’s? We press the shutter; chimp; & delete more than we save. In my opinion ‘Scott’ had the photographic awareness to ‘try’ the shot; it just so happened to work extremely well & appealed to many.

Regards,

Al.

Thank you Al for a well composed, structured, rational post.

[insert appluading smiley here]

Well said, Al.
I didn't appreciate the POTW and couldn't understand why it was chosen (sorry Scott) - but that is my shortcomings as a photographer. It would have been useful if the mods had said why they liked it, but that would have been received wisdom - far better for my development to study and try to understand another branch of photography.
I'm also pleased that experienced photographers such as the mods can't say why they like an image, but just do - it's my reaction to many photos that are posted - in the end that's what it's all about: producing pleasing photos.

I, like Andy am well known for my "tell it like it is approach" and don't usually shy away from saying what I think.

I posted in the "sticking neck out" thread that it would be welcome to see the rationale behind the POTW choices made, but it seems this is not going to happen, which seems a pity.

I'm not having a pop, I know how hard it can be running a forum (I've done it myself - cycling related) but feel the POTW is IMHO just not representative of the quality shown on this forum. This is no reflection on the image takers and I realise I'll probably never have an image chosen, but it would be nice to have some idea what makes the chosen images "stand out".

Just my 2p worth.

CLARIFICATION: May I clear up one point about this thread. My comments on the Gallery entry for POTW are there and have been modified by me today. I originally duplicated those comments and placed them in the thread entitled "Discussion on POTW" - That entry was deleted by a moderator and we have discussed the matter - the moderator agrees he was a bit hasty but thought my comment too inflammatory. I agree with him and have edited accordingly.
This forum is the BEST photography forum I have come across and I would hate to see us turn into factions or cliques - I have enough of that in my clergy profession.
I believe we all learn from constructive criticism and not making comments is often a way out, but we do not learn from one another or share our experience by opting out - that is why I try and comment on as many pictures as possible.
Photography is a dynamic, living art form - stop learning and it dies or becomes a sterile desert. We will all have our likes and dislikes but we must always be free to share our honest opinions with one another.
The moderators of this forum have a thankless task and we are free to bash them when we like. Duncan gets it right above when he paraphrases my signature - "Moderators choose POTW from what they like - if others like it - thats a bonus" - Thanks Duncan. I think the work they do is admirable and I for one would not wish myself in their shoes - I'm very grateful for all the work they do behind the scenes on our behalf so we can continue to enjoy this forum and learn about our craft. But we are all human and we all make mistakes - I will be hearing confessions after this post. Please continue to ENJOY AND SHARE

I feel a little bit of guilt having previously stuck a question mark over what the POTW choice was coming up with.

After a day or two musing, and even slinking back to WAB whence I came for a day, my conclusion is that this forum has gained enough strength over the 2 years (+) it has been running to hold together a very wide range of photographic interests. That has to mean that upto a 1/3 of the interests may, for a while, leave a particular member 'cold', but I am pretty sure there is enough overlap and shifting of individual tastes and styles for there to be no risk of splitting into factions.

I would add that I use WPF as a complement to pbase. There one can post whole galleries of stuff that wouldn't get a single comment here and communicate selectively with an even wider range of photgraphers internationally. Here one nethertheless gets a sense of community, plenty of help when needed, and an occasional laugh.

It is the mods we have to thank for this and I would like to take this opportunity of doing so.

Having viewed the aforementioned shot,can see why it is causing the controversy.
Perhaps,because it is Scott's interpretation of his shot.How many of us would take a shot of some script,which conveys,not a lot.Nigel Blakes comment on the image was very good.
An interesting choice for the POTW.Yes,perhaps not everyones fav image.But different.
Scott has used his imagination with this shot.For most people with a new macro lens,the first port of call would be the nearest flower bud,or a still life on the dining room table,or in Al's case,the kitchen!!!.
But good to see a debate on the subject.

Trying not to lose sight that PoTW is meant to be a light hearted affair it does strike me that everybody is making very hard work of it. It is not my intention to offend Mods or past recipients of PoTW but I would like to air my views on the subject. Watching members rallying around and papering over the cracks is doing little to improve matters. Correct me if I am wrong but I thought the purpose was to pick images that showed some merit and stood head and shoulders above the rest. As opposed to picking an image that purely falls outside the spectrum of the posted norm. Maybe I am wrong and we should start a new galley sections called "Shock & Horror" so we can explore our darker side for a change. After studying the 8 PoTW I would only consider 3 of them to have any merit discounting the fact whether they were the best for that week. I suspect other forum member are of a similar opinion and hence the current controversy. In the case of Scott's image I raised an eyebrow because it is a classic cliche / tutorial shot illustrating shallow DOF. The attached example only took 5 seconds to find searching the web. Reading the comments attached to Scott's image was it picked because of his hand written script or the skill in its execution ?

After reading Duncan's explanation of the selection procedure I am left feeling rather bemused. I must admit I am not a big fan of so called committee styled decision making. The fact is committees never make a decision they just agree to compromise. What concerns me is that it is theoretically possible that the committee has reached it's 20th choice before some agreement is struck. In which case it is probably best not to declare a PoTW for that week.

May I offer suggestions, feel free to shoot down in flames if you so desire.

Firstly why restrict it to one outright winner ? If a small number are worthy then why not list them all in no particular order.

Secondly to help prevent the committee getting stuck in a rut with choosing their own personal favourites and styles why not invite a random guest judge from the regular forum members. Even if its just to give the deciding vote. I am sure a few would jump at the chance to help out.

I reckon that the Mods are having a larf to see whether we're awake or not - even Scott realised (after a tip from Nigel) that he hadn't made the best of a promising situation :)

It's always great to see the world 'anew' when we get a new lens, especially a macro which allows us to focus very closely on everyday objects that we'd overlooked before. Long before I bought my first macro, I borrowed a set of extension tubes from a workmate and I still have some of the shots that I took of whatever came to hand when I was trying them out. I'm going through my old slides at the moment and have found a few of them - perhaps I should have posted one or two into the gallery instead of some old mountain views ;)

Looking through previous POTW selections, it's clear that the Mods have steered away from what might be termed 'traditional' shots (no chance of any mountain views getting through!). Whether this is deliberate or not is hard to determine as they're not going to tell us why they picked them - fair enough, as we then have to look again at them to make up our own minds.

I hope the Mods don't start to modify their choice in order to avoid to much flak and, even more importantly, I hope members don't start tailoring their photos to match what they think the Mods might look for.

The last thing we need is for everyone to start posting similar shots to each other - we all see the world in a different way and we should all post shots that reflect that view rather than how we think someone else might take it.

Anyway, with tongue very firmly in cheek, here is my entry for the 'Emperoror's New Clothes' award:

1 It shows the use of a macro lens
2 It shows what can be achieved with a relatively slow shutter speed, hand-held (ie. I didn't bother setting it up too much!)
3 It shows how you 'correct' the white-balance post-capture (shot in room-lighting, originally)
4 It shows what can be achieved with a modern digital camera by going up to 1600ISO (see point 2)
5 it is of a section of a lens test target that was given away with a Soligor lens that I bought in the early '70s, putting a historical slant on the shot (showing the cofidence that independent lens makers used to have in their products)
6 It should really be taken at 26x the lens' focal-length for the readings to be 'accurate' but as this is a close-up of one section, it shows that the photographer is not hide-bound by any 'conventional restraints' on his creativity;)
7 Despite points 4 and 6 and the quality-loss with 'save for web' compression, it shows that the Sigma 50mm EX Macro lens is quite a good optic, more than capable of delivering the kind of shot that you hoped it might do when you first bought it (though the autofocus motor is a bit noisy if you're used to USM-type lenses!)

As I've previously mentioned in this thread; this, by means of being a 'forum' is allowing those with views to air them.
It's quite plain that there are strong feelings regarding the POTW subject, and the dislike of the way it is being judged at the moment.
Suggestion; form a POTW committee consisting of 'non mods', whom would therefore set out a basic structure for judging & whom could liasse between each other by 'PM' at the end of each week to decide the winner and also to agree & post a detailed description of why that shot was a winner.
I know Jamie is of a different opinion to myself on this one; he's a right to his view. There appears to be around half a dozen with the same view on this thread alone. There must be at least 10 members who would wish to commit to the weekly judging. I'd go along with & accept their decisions too.
What do you think?
Al.

Hi to all - I think it is about time I entered this thread again - once more to throw some petrol on the fire it seems to have ignited ;) - I would love to see such passion in all of our photographs - that is where I believe it truly belongs.

First: I am not trying to paper over any cracks - I started this thread because I was annoyed that a moderator had removed from this section - "Discussion on POTW" a comment that I had made about the POTW.:mad: We have discussed the matter via pm and agree we were both wrong He was hasty in removing the comment - I was a little savage/blunt - as is often my way and I have made my comments more constructive ( which is what I usually do - I hope ).

Second: I think the POTW is a great idea, but perhaps, the format needs to be looked at - as already mentioned - anything chosen by committee is usually a compromise. So why not make POTW an individual choice? Individual moderator OR individual member - chosen by moderators or statistically from those who post a lot - use the forum regularly? Just a thought. Some - may then find the time to also add comments and reasons for their choice. :confused:


Third: Please remember we are all learning: if you think you know it all then you have died photographically - you just haven't realized it yet - but it will be reflected in your pictures. A technically perfect picture can be soulless and a beginners snap can have a life and vibrancy that makes it sing even if it shows poor technique.

Fourth and Last: Never let our disagreements become personal - healthy debate is a sign of a healthy family/forum - and apart from me - none of you are right all the time - someone tells me it is inherited Papal infallibility :D

A committee is a committee is a committee - no matter how it's constituted or how it votes. Let's leave the POTW as it is.

The forum ig getting bigger and bigger, with countries joining at a time. dont you think the moderator team should be extended? maybe then someone new will commit and then you wouldnt have to expect all the mods to be involved each week!?

I nominate Al, If he can deal with Mods with attitude, he can be one eh ?

J

I have a great idea, which may well work out and gives everyone a chance to be a part of the selection process.

The image with the largest number of comments at a certain day/time at the end of each week is chosen as the POTW.

Now many may well say that in the above scenario the current POTW would have been chosen - I disagree because this is a one off and many people have commented on this image to show support for the mods.

If we start from scratch it will not matter what one individual thinks, it will be a real group decision and in my opinion will help make members feel part of the selection process.

Comments please????

I'll thank everyone individually for their comments on any of my postings; in addition, I'll register under a dozen different names and I think that I stand a good chance of winning

Interesting idea.

On that basis, statistically, based on 22800 images posted recieving a total of 73600 comments or an average of 3.229 comments each your best chances of getting a POTW winner are:

Category_____________Ave Comments
People___________________3.683
Manipulated Images________3.676
Still Life__________________3.580

and least likely to be selected would be

Transport________________2.465
Plant Life.________________2.411
Sports & Action___________2.268

Of course there are lies, damn lies & then there's statistics :D

Some very interesting ideas here, but in the end, however the PotW is chosen, and whichever picture is chosen people will disagree.

You could set up a committee, but who chooses the committee, and is their choice of picture going to be any different to that which is being chosen at the moment.

You could select an individual member, but who chooses that member. And people will still dispute the choice of member, and their choice of picture.

You could select the picture which has attracted most comments, but not all comments attached to an image are relevant to that picture. (I currently have a picture in the gallery, and at least three of the comments posted have nothing to with my picture, instead they are a debate about Picture of the Week).
Also a lot of people reply to each comment posted on one of their images, thereby giving a false impression.

At the end of the day all theses alternatives are just “variations on a theme,” and will still cause controversy. So let’s leave PotW as it is.

Well said John Attachment 4029

LOL - John your starting to sound like a committee meeting yourself. :D

I think the issue is more to do with the degree of controversy. Accepting you can't please all the people all the time you can at least attempt to get a High level of agreement in the choice of PoTW. In my case the level of agreement is 3 out of 8.

If after a straw poll 80% of the people are 80% in agreement with the choice of PoTW then I'll go quietly back into my corner and view the PoTW as another worthless exercise.

PS - I would put your Saltaire Chapel in my top 3 for this week, but having said that it no doubt has given it the kiss of death. :rolleyes:

Hi All
I have read this thread with interest, and I remembered starting this thread:-

http://www.worldphotographyforum.com...ead.php?t=1717

Maybe a look would show the difficulty in picking one shot over a year, so you can imagine the trouble picking one per week.

Ian

For some of us, the point of taking a picture is to try to capture a true image of the natural world. Unfortunately pictures of that type don't even get looked at on WPF let alone draw comments. My impression is that only contrived, artificial pictures will ever be considered for POTW status. My solution is simple, look at the winner admire it, perhaps, then move on and not not worry about it. My pictures are what I enjoy taking and if my taste doesn't suite anyone else well, so be it.

Dan, I think you got it 100% correct.

As two threads have now been posted about the mods choice of POTW that have generated a fair level of discussion my thoughts are
1) Mods choice of POTW is Mods choice and not everyone will be happy but leave as is.
2) Members who feel that they would like to flag up a particular image could do so through a dedicated thread in the Photography Forum. " Personal Current Gallery Favourite "
That should keep everyone happy.

This would allow any member to post a link to ONE IMAGE that they feel worthy of note from " The Most Recent Photos " in any of the catagories. I realize that images in some catagories will span quite some time but hey-ho you have to start somewhere if this is what you want. Thereafter individual member submissions should be at least one week apart.

There does however need to be one rule. Respect for the posters Critique or No Critique before posting any comment as to that selection. The odds are that these choices could be as contraversial is POTW.

It would be up to the person chosing the image if they wanted to expand on the reasons for their choice.

I will start the ball running. See " Personal current gallery favourite " thread

Don

The idea gets my vote Don. It allows images of merit of any type to get a mention.

I think that the fairest and most democratic way is to let the members vote and give each member a number of votes determined as follows.

100 votes for every week of membership - this will reward loyalty to the forum.
50 votes for every comment made during the previous week - this will encourage participation.
75 votes for every photo posted since becoming a member - this will further encourage participation.
Each week the member is allowed to distribute a percentage of his votes amongst any four photos that he chooses. To allow for ties, the member then states how his first choice votes are distributed among the other three photos. He then states how his second choice votes are distributed. Likewise his third choice votes.
The photo with highest number of votes is chosen as POTW provided that it gets more that 60% of the total votes cast and more that 40% of the total possible votes of all members, whether they have voted or not.
Should no photo meet these percentages, then the member's first choice votes are distributed as he previously nominated. The process continues until there is a clear winner.
When all of this descends into confusion and chaos, the moderators then decide on the POTW by whatever method they feel works for them and we can all go back to enjoying looking at the images we like instead of being critical of the mods for trying to make the forum more interesting.

Good Grief Mike that sounds extremely complicated. I think life is too short to work out how many votes you may or may not have. Plus who is going to verify them ?
Since when was PoTW a competition ?

I think the whole thing should be kept simple. A simple method to mention in dispatches a short list of images which were considered to be outstanding in one way or another in a particular weeks post. Some weeks there maybe no images that make the grade other weeks there maybe 3 or 4. I think Don's approach goes a long way towards that.

We should be out there snapping not counting votes :D

I agree, it should be kept simple, but who ever decides on the Potw, should say why it stood out. When greeting new members, it is always said we're here to help and contribute, especially to newcomers of 'tography. what better way to help and inspire than to choose a potw and explain what/where and why. then newcomers know what to look for in a shot?
J

It's easy enough to decide who does all the all the work to verify the votes - the member whose been shouting loudest about the choice of POTW and how the mods choose it. You'd be surprised how quickly everyone would agree that the present method is perfect.
I put forward my idea with tongue in cheek to show that whatever method was used, somebody would not like it - that's why I ended up saying let the mods decide anyway that they want.

I read the first few posts on this thread and did not know who Scott was and so was unsure of which picture was being talked about.

Today I noticed a link to all the POTW winners and looked at a few to see which was the one under discussion. Based on the comments, Scott's photo (Scribbles ) was the 4th picture I looked at.

So I found 3 other photographs that to my mind could have fitted the criteria that was being criticised. To my mind that just shows how much of personal opinion is involved.

One criticism is that it was a test shot with a new lens. So be it. Is that any worse than Sassan sticking his camera on a tripod and pointing it at the sky for 17 minutes. Probably not.

Each of the winning POTW photographs bring something to the party. Personally I prefer to see ordinary objects photographed well and with a new dimension rather than a panoramic view of Everest from base camp, a picture that most people will never be in a position to take.

All in all I am happy for a POTW to be chosen, I am not interested in voting on the matter but it might be a good idea to qualify why that particular picture has been selected.

John