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Cameras Discussion on Cameras of all types

New Tool or New Toy?

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  #11  
Old 26-06-10, 21:23
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I learnt on manual only film cameras using a hand held meter. The difference in approach is all in your mind Alex. What has happened has revealed more about you than anything else. Put the Canon 30D in manual mode and decide how many shots you will allow yourself for any outing and stick to it. Self discipline, don't blame the tool because you took a machine gun approach when you could. It is not an inherent property of digital that shots can only be taken in machine gun mode it is merely an indication of your lack of discipline when the restraints are off. Now, when you have conquered that you can begin to explore the real properties and opportunities of digital SLR shooting. That I am still doing and thoroughly enjoying.
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  #12  
Old 27-06-10, 10:23
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"I'm off to buy a developing tank and some D-76 ;-)"
Thats how I got into photography many years ago developing & printing B&W. For me the darkroom was better than takeing photos. (Dont tell anyone it still is)
Now digital PP offers so much more than I could ever have dreamed of & is cheaper.
OM-1 great camera loved the one I had wish still did but would never use it if i did.
So, get film and or digital darkroom and have fun. Try to get the best from both digital & film.
Learn from the photos that go into the bin. (not that i do)
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  #13  
Old 27-06-10, 21:31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nirofo View Post
Hi Gidders

"you will only obtain the quality results if you forget about point and shoot and treat your DSLR with the respect it deserves.
Come on Clive - promise me you will buck up and try and be a bit more imaginative !!
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  #14  
Old 11-08-10, 08:36
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Originally Posted by Gidders View Post

However your post has made me think .... how about this for an idea ... go out with the camera set on manual exposure and take just one 256 memory card and see what you came back with.

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Originally Posted by surfg1mp View Post
Thats a really interesting idea and one i may try if only i had a 256 card or you could still even get hold of one of those...lol.
Just come back to this idea (I've got two 256Mb cards as it happens and it does make you think more about your shots ) but you can get them on ebay of a few quid <<<here>>>
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  #15  
Old 15-08-10, 13:15
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Originally Posted by Gidders View Post
............... However your post has made me think .... how about this for an idea ... go out with the camera set on manual exposure and take just one 256 memory card and see what you came back with.
I have just picked up on this thread and had a chuckle.

No need to buy a new card just set out with the equivalent number as a roll of film as your max available shots. 24 or 36.
Be honest with yourself and DO NOT CHIMP OR DELETE ANY FRAMES. This would put your mindset right back into the film days.

Zoom users could also pick up the challenge of limiting themselves to say two specific focal lengths as zooms were pretty poor back then, and most used primes or just the good old 50mm that came with the camera as that was all that could be afforded.

There you go Alex ....... no different to the film days of the 60's, 70's and 80's.

Don
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  #16  
Old 15-08-10, 16:27
Glenvic Glenvic is offline  
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I have read this thread with a great deal of interest. In earlier years my husband owned an SLR film camera and he and I spent many a happy hour developing and printing black and white photographs and developing slide film but I did not become involved in taking photos - after all it was an expensive hobby and we couldn't afford two cameras! I also worked in a specialist photo printers where my main work involved printing selective enlargements although I saw first hand the result of the "average" photographers output.

I have always been interested in computer technology and have owned digital cameras for many years, my first being a Kodak DC model in the mid 1990's. I bought my first digital SLR, a Canon 300D, but like many did not have a clue how to use it and practically glued the dial to P mode. I gradually learned how to use the camera through looking at books and trial and error but whilst I took a lot of reasonable snaps (and the rare good image) I was never going to be a good photographer. I needed something more - and found it by enrolling in a City & Guilds Level 1 photography course. For me it was an eye-opener. Suddenly AV and TV modes had a use - I even found that I was using the camera with that little dial set on Manual. I gained a Distinction for that first course which inspired me to go on to take Level 2. I'm still waiting for the results for the course but even if I only get a Pass I will be happy because whilst I will never be a great photographer I am certainly better than I ever was beforehand and now have an understanding of my camera. Whilst undoubtedly it is easy to fire off a series of 100 or more shots quickly and without giving thought to composition, light or subject and produce a series of "snaps" suitable only for the bin, using the camera properly can take these from a snap to a photo. No different to a film camera used properly but quicker as you can see the results immediately and re-take your image if it is not right. In the days of film how many good usable images would the average photographer have had from three rolls of 36?
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  #17  
Old 23-08-10, 10:13
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Originally Posted by Glenvic View Post
I have read this thread with a great deal of interest. In earlier years my husband owned an SLR film camera and he and I spent many a happy hour developing and printing black and white photographs and developing slide film but I did not become involved in taking photos - after all it was an expensive hobby and we couldn't afford two cameras! I also worked in a specialist photo printers where my main work involved printing selective enlargements although I saw first hand the result of the "average" photographers output.

I have always been interested in computer technology and have owned digital cameras for many years, my first being a Kodak DC model in the mid 1990's. I bought my first digital SLR, a Canon 300D, but like many did not have a clue how to use it and practically glued the dial to P mode. I gradually learned how to use the camera through looking at books and trial and error but whilst I took a lot of reasonable snaps (and the rare good image) I was never going to be a good photographer. I needed something more - and found it by enrolling in a City & Guilds Level 1 photography course. For me it was an eye-opener. Suddenly AV and TV modes had a use - I even found that I was using the camera with that little dial set on Manual. I gained a Distinction for that first course which inspired me to go on to take Level 2. I'm still waiting for the results for the course but even if I only get a Pass I will be happy because whilst I will never be a great photographer I am certainly better than I ever was beforehand and now have an understanding of my camera. Whilst undoubtedly it is easy to fire off a series of 100 or more shots quickly and without giving thought to composition, light or subject and produce a series of "snaps" suitable only for the bin, using the camera properly can take these from a snap to a photo. No different to a film camera used properly but quicker as you can see the results immediately and re-take your image if it is not right. In the days of film how many good usable images would the average photographer have had from three rolls of 36?
Well over the holiday's I've been using both the OM-1 and the 30D. The latter is ideal for action and macro stuff (I have a particularly excellent set of butterfly photos) while the former was for everthing else, landscapes and architecture, not to mention the Minox loaded with colour film for general touristy stuff. The dSLR is way too heavy to carry around everywhere, I often found myself unwilling to lug it around in the heat.

I haven't yet developed any of my film shots, so I guess until then I can't make a final judgement over which medium gives me the best results. Overall the digi does have some big niggles (rubbish viewfinder in comparison to any old SLR, the size and weight, no subtlety, still don't like the way the manual controls are, need to mess around on the computer for hours afterwards) but also pros like fast AF, versatility and the fact you don't need to worry about the film being too warm, or too humid, or in any way damaged (such anxiety really grips me when I'm away from home togging).

Overall one medium doesn't hinder another, and it is my hope that as digital image capture becomes all the more sophisticated it will help delineate the niche that film has and thus bring more people back to this wonderful alternative way of taking pictures.

My keep rate on a roll of 36 is 2-4, so from 3 rolls I can expect to get back a good 9 back or if I'm luckier 4 or 5 ones that deserve to be framed on the wall. With digital the % of good shots is much lower but the volume means I get around the same amount.
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  #18  
Old 23-08-10, 18:17
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Originally Posted by Alex1994 View Post
.............I haven't yet developed any of my film shots, so I guess until then I can't make a final judgement over which medium gives me the best results. Overall the digi does have some big niggles (rubbish viewfinder in comparison to any old SLR, the size and weight, no subtlety, still don't like the way the manual controls are, need to mess around on the computer for hours afterwards) but also pros like fast AF, versatility and the fact you don't need to worry about the film being too warm, or too humid, or in any way damaged (such anxiety really grips me when I'm away from home togging).

Overall one medium doesn't hinder another, and it is my hope that as digital image capture becomes all the more sophisticated it will help delineate the niche that film has and thus bring more people back to this wonderful alternative way of taking pictures.
Hi Alex,

Hope you enjoyed your holiday.

A couple of points from this post ....
I have no experience of the 30D but I cannot believe the viewfinder is that bad, particulary as you say the camera is excellent for macro where a poor finder would be a serious handicap. Ok I have not looked through a OM finder but I cannot imagine that it is that much better than my F3HP.

Can you define no subtlety or is that related to the camera being a bit larger than the OM-1.

The need to mess around on a computer for hours afterwards is the big surprise. I have done colour neg and transparency printing for years in a home darkroom and by comparison digital is a whole new world in terms of processing time. Of course if your negs are being outsourced for dev and print then you may well be feeling it. But unless you are having pro level printing done by a lab ( that includes dodge/burn as appropriate ) or in B&W paper grade to suite the subject, then it could never compare with what is achievable in a darkroom with a bit of process knowledge and expeience. All a bit like the difference between accepting straight out of camera images, and those that have been processed to maximise the potential of the subject.

While I know that you have a big thing for film, this bit I do not quite follow [ and it is my hope that as digital image capture becomes all the more sophisticated it will help delineate the niche that film has and thus bring more people back to this wonderful alternative way of taking pictures. ]

If this relates to the complexity of functions achievable then then even the most complex digital camera can be set to manual. Equally film and some film cameras, particularly large format jobs with front and rear swings, tilts and shifts can become a complex medium if thats what you want. So perhaps 'alternative way of taking pictures' needs greater definition.

Don
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  #19  
Old 23-08-10, 20:28
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Being mean (moi?) I think Alex is just trying to justify his use and preference for film perhaps to try and persuade himself as much as anybody. If you prefer film Alex that is fine, no need to try and justify your preference.
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  #20  
Old 23-08-10, 21:33
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Why not justify the preference? I'm saying why I like it, and I say that because I like it! Mike, you've got me wrong ;-). If I didn't like film I would have thrown out all that mechanical stuff the minute the EOS 30D rolled through.

When I say 'no subtlety' I am of course referring to the giant bulk of the 30D. It instantly makes you look like a pro and I find that makes people wary, whereas someone with an antique instantly comes across as a harmless amateur, even though it may be a very high quality camera like a Nikon F, Olympus OM, Pentax K or Leica.

The finder is probably the biggest beef I have on the 30D, for two reasons: 1. It's too small for my preference (the OM has a giant, very bright finder, I daresay larger than the one in your F3HP Don though probably not by a lot). The second complaint is that the camera settings that appear in the bottom of the finder when the shutter is half pressed (aperture, shutter speed, exposure compensation) become invisible when in bright sunlight, to the point that I accidentally left it on +1 compensation and ended up with 20 crappy pictures (until I noticed in replay).

Now that I develop my film it takes me around half an hour from start to finish, and another 20 minutes for scanning. If you want to import some 100 odd photos, sift through, edit the good ones to perfection, it would take me well over an hour. Maybe it's just me.

Well, in answer to the question I asked in the title, the EOS 30D is certainly a tool and not a toy (though it is very easy to use it as such). However this still doesn't stop my love for film, especially B&W.
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