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The Digital Darkroom The In-Computer editing forum.

alternatives to CS3

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  #11  
Old 21-01-08, 17:17
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walwyn walwyn is offline
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I was going to suggest PhotoImpact ($50) , but seeing as you're a mac user there is not much point.
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  #12  
Old 21-01-08, 17:36
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Hi Chris and others - have you ever used Aperture? I use it as my main catalogue application. Apperture 1.6 is on the way I understand, and it promises to be all anyone could need (Previewed at Nikon Solutions Expo a couple of months back by a CS3 demonstrator who was drooling and itching to get his hands on it ! ) It does most of the adjustments I need and then anything else goes goes to Photoshop CS3 - I also have CS2, Lightroom, Elements and NX but I have always found the Nikon Software and Apple do not sit well together - they are always slow with their Apple software and usually buggy to start with. I use Lightroom as a sort of sub catalogue with certain chosen images, and Elements is useful if you arn't going to do much. However which ever application you use with Apple a large RAM helps I use 4.5 Gb RAM and can run all of the above together. I would suggest a minimum of 2 - 2.5 Gb to run PS well.
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  #13  
Old 21-01-08, 17:49
Chris
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Quote:
Originally Posted by walwyn View Post
I was going to suggest PhotoImpact ($50) , but seeing as you're a mac user there is not much point.
I wasn't particularly after info for myself, as I am very satisfied with NX despite it being slowish on an ancient machine -

Just thought the subject could do with a new airing 2 years on and so that newercomers to DSLR know they don't necessarily need to lash out £500+ (UK) before getting down to serious PS.
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  #14  
Old 21-01-08, 22:19
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Clive - this was done converting in DPP with sharpness raised to about middle of range, but no other tweaks except a bit of crop, then entirely in NX. My cutting out is scrappy compared to yours, but as you know you can go chasing stray hairs for ever (haven't tried to remove them from around the eyes either). Also I suspect you planted onto a real background of some sort, I have just done a blackish one with grain added then gaussian blur.

Above all I don't have your experience in portraits, so have only done an obvious tidy up.


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  #15  
Old 22-01-08, 00:05
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Interesting experiment Chris.

A couple of observations - I never do any sharpening at the conversion from RAW stage... in fact I do all my post processing and then sharpen at the last step - I find this reduces the occurrence of odd sharpening effects.

The cutting out is I think a big difference, and you may be surprised to learn that I do not use any selection tools to do it. If I explain the technique I use (which I think you will agree is effective) and then you can tell me if this could be replicated in NX... because as you say you could go on chasing stray hairs for ever - with my technique you don't have to

As you point out the key is make the hair not look cut out.
  1. I go to the channels palate and look at the individual red, green & blue channels to determine which has the greatest contrast between the models hair and the background - usually the blue channel.
  2. Next I go to calculations and blend the blue channel with itself in multiply blending mode to create a new channel. This has the effect of adding the darkness of the pixel values together so light bits become a little bit darker and dark bits become a lot darker. This makes the stray hairs stand out better.
  3. I then go to calculations again with the new channel and repeat the step but with overlay mode. This now darkens areas darker than 50% grey and lightens areas lighter that 50% grey.

I now have a mask like this Vic_mask.jpg which preserves the fine hair detail Vic_mask_detail.jpg. It is then a simple matter to fill in the centre of the mask with a black brush to get Vic_mask_final.jpg apply this to the layer, position new background underneath - generated with a Photoshop action - and you have a perfect natural looking cut out in about 5 minutes max

I then work on the eyes, lips, skin tones etc, again using masks generated from the layers using different channels & blending modes depending on what I'm doing. For example I smooth the skin tones through a straight red channel mask and sharpen through and inverted red channel mask, and the highlights in her hair were enhanced through a grey channel mask blended with itself in overlay mode.

The point being that using these masks that you can lighten, smooth, darken etc the parts of the image based on the lightness or darkness of the image itself thereby enhancing the tonal graduations.

There, I've given away my trade secrets

Hope this makes sense - I would be surprised if NX gives this level of control, I may be wrong - because if it did it would become the industry standard.
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  #16  
Old 22-01-08, 10:37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gidders View Post
There, I've given away my trade secrets

Hope this makes sense - I would be surprised if NX gives this level of control, I may be wrong - because if it did it would become the industry standard.
Oh well, a nice side effect of starting this thread, you guys now have a master-class in portrait editing

On the specific, as you know Clive the original was very soft, and the end position included some very hard textures. My request for a play was to see if, the hair especially, could be softened....and why not use a live example for the discussion.

On the general, PS/CS I would describe as having attained a near monopoly, an unhealthy situation and reminiscent of Autocad in architecture/engineering whence I have retired. No creative hands-on architect ever touched Autocad, it was, precisely, industrial. Microstation and one or two other strugglers were on the contrary design orientated; Architrion, the best, actually went to the wall (or French only).

PS/CS is different in that its cost is dropping and it can be used at simpler levels by beginners, but I have yet to meet anyone who took to it like a duck to water. Yes, it has myriad features that professional photographers need and it appears that most of the more advanced amateurs on WPF use sub-sets of it to a greater or lesser extent for special purposes. Yes, this includes users of NX beyond a particular stage of editing.

NX includes enough advanced colour and tonal editing features (and facility for processing different parts of an image differently) for most outdoor photography. It works in a more intuitive manner and, costing 1/5 of the price of CS, I am suggesting it is an alternative for those of us newer to SLR photography, keen to learn, who appear to form a large part of the forum.

I am not binning PSE(4) yet, as I know that it includes one or two features I may need and haven't got on my other mac sharewares. But, lacking curves (or, better, LCH in NX), I don't find it much use for landscape. I re-edit most images for which I originally used it, now using DPP or NX with significantly improved results. I also find the 'layers' operation a pain compared to the NX 'steps'....and, apart from comparison testing, have not used it since getting NX.

I have not tried Aperture as at £300 plus a newer computer, I would need a pretty hard sell on it Andy.
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  #17  
Old 22-01-08, 18:45
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Hi Chris

You make some good points, particularly about the pseudo monopoly, and the lack of ease of use of PS for beginners, not to mention the price differential.

I'm not sure what functionality NX 'steps' provides - it sounds like a sophisticated undo facility. While layers offers this as well, they also give the capability to fade the effect of any particular action by reducing the opacity, group layers together so they only interact on each other, and nest layers within groups to facilitate selective masking of selections etc. I use all of these techniques when processing portraits, but also there are occasions when they can help bring out the best in other types of shot. For example my shot Slate Fence used combinations of this and the layer masking technique described above to bring out the shaft of sunlight on the slate and mosses in the foreground to lighten the light parts without lightening the dark parts.

We probably need to get together some time to understand the capabilities and benefits of the respective software packages
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  #18  
Old 22-01-08, 19:42
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I'm not sure what functionality NX 'steps' provides - it sounds like a sophisticated undo facility. While layers offers this as well, they also give the capability to fade the effect of any particular action by reducing the opacity
Each STEP has an opacity %age equivalent to that on a LAYER and can be turned on/off individually. The ones checked 'on' act cumulatively without having to decide on a % opacity for higher layers. The steps all get saved in a saved .nef file whether on or off and whether originating from a nef or jpg, so you can revisit/re-edit as on a .psd

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Originally Posted by Gidders View Post
For example my shot Slate Fence used combinations of this and the layer masking technique described above to bring out the shaft of sunlight on the slate and mosses in the foreground to lighten the light parts without lightening the dark parts.
The 'Control points' do this by acting either within their radius as set or also bounded by a selection shape - for brightness,contrast, R,G,B,warmth ± - or in 'linked enhancements' ie employing additional filters from the menus.

The 'partial selection' zones also define a boundary (with optional feathering and opacity) within which any combination of other 'enhancements' work that are in menus. This does not however apply to sharpening; that can only be done on the camera settings (best), ie only on .nef, or there is unsharp mask (with usual attendant dangers). So for what you described, you would have to start sharp everywhere (why I did it in DPP on your CR2) and then use blur filtering where you didn't want it.

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We probably need to get together some time to understand the capabilities and benefits of the respective software packages
Now why didn't I think of that. Love to only am slightly confined to home except for limited excursions at present, but you are welcome here, as are any WPF members, for a quickie meet.
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  #19  
Old 23-01-08, 03:03
Rudra Sen Rudra Sen is offline  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gidders View Post
A couple of observations - I never do any sharpening at the conversion from RAW stage... in fact I do all my post processing and then sharpen at the last step - I find this reduces the occurrence of odd sharpening effects.
Absolutely right here. But I keep‘0’ sharpness in my camera and push sharpness to 3 during raw processing. Tell me if I’m doing anything wrong here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gidders
There, I've given away my trade secrets
..And it’s a great eye opener. Thanks a ton Gidders for this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris;26476I
have not tried Aperture as at £300
Chris, I’ve just ordered my Aperture from Apple Store here. They don’t keep it in their stock as it’s special software. Price here is £200.
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  #20  
Old 23-01-08, 08:20
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Chris, there's no need to pay out over £500 for CS3 as Elements 6 costs about £65 and does everything that most photographers would want. The Gimps is free and is pretty good. A newcomer to photography who wants to take more than snapshots will soon want to move onto Photoshop.

It's interesting what you say about architects not using Autocads. I'm a structural engineer and work from architects' drawing daily. I agree that most architects won't use Autocads, but here's the thing: very few of them know how to use computer aided drawing software correctly. It is generally just seen as a substitute for a pencil, without taking advantage of the various facilitites that it has - sometimes resulting in drawings that take longer than by hand or lead to potentially serious errors.

I think that to get the most from any piece of software (whatever its use) it must be used correctly and fully - there's little point in using it otherwise.
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