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Is this acceptable

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  #11  
Old 24-03-07, 23:11
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Roy,

I agree with Rob if all the branches are removed. The twig that crosses the bird yes, and possibly the distracting one to the left crossing at 45 deg.

Don
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  #12  
Old 24-03-07, 23:29
Bruce Carson Bruce Carson is offline
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Roy, I apologize--my posting was certainly uncharitable.
I fully am aware that image enhancing has been on the books since the Daguerrotype and I know that it's so much easier now to do whatever it takes digitally to produce clean, bright and almost perfect pictures.
I just have a slightly queasy feeling when objects that were once in the picture are gone forever. The temptation is there and the means are easily available for all of us to become a Houdini of photography and I'm just not sure if that's for the good.
Anyway, you started the ball rolling and I gave it a kick on its way. That's for the good.

Bruce C

Last edited by Bruce Carson; 24-03-07 at 23:48.
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  #13  
Old 24-03-07, 23:38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce Carson View Post
Roy, I apologize--my posting was almost certainly uncharitable.
I fully am aware that image enhancing has been on the books since the Daguerrotype and I know that it's so much easier now to do whatever it takes digitally to produce clean, bright and almost perfect pictures.
I just have a slightly queasy feeling when objects that were once in the picture are gone forever. The temptation is there and the means are easily available for all of us to become a Houdini of photography and I'm just not sure if that's for the good.
Anyway, you started the ball rolling and I gave it a kick on its way. That's for the good.

Bruce C
Bruce, Glad you are aware of why I started the thread. In Bird photographs it is common place to remove some distracting elements but not to this extent. Also it is well to remember as Don say's 'you can not make a silk purse out of a Sow's ear'.
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  #14  
Old 25-03-07, 03:15
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Originally Posted by Roy C View Post
Just wondering what others think about the ethics of image editing like the attached - is this going to far ?.

I would say you've turned a mundane lack lustre snapshot into a useable photograph, and no, I don't think you've gone to far in this instance. If you were doctoring the image to make it appear as if it was taken somewhere where it would be a twitchers tick, (which does happen in the tickers fraternity from time to time), then yes it would be unethical and a step too far. Bird photographers wouldn't normally take a photo of a bird with so much clutter around it unless it was some sought after rarity or a particularly desirable species, however, if they did then I'm sure they would be pleased with the result you've obtained.

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  #15  
Old 25-03-07, 04:25
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Roy C you have done a great work, no doubt.As for this debate of computer talent versus natural skill is being discussed for quite a long time(Ansel Adam too had been criticized during his time for manipulation)..Why infact me at one point of time,my standing was same as where Bruce stand now.But with time I have realized - to get the good end result ,one "Must " start with the best "Original" Image.Image editing software won't improve the badly composed or badly shot picture by any means.Why even in this forum if you will notice where the excellent images were ruined by editing softwere.
I would like to argue my point in this way:-If you write a story with a pen and paper,you make more subtle mistakes which is being rectified by computer(if you use computer).So you stay with your "original Idea" and give yourself more space to to do creative thinking than to be bothered about nitty gritty.
2nd Photography is a "multidisplinery action" It does not start with the camera and ends with the camera.One has to have a enough skill to handle all the stages of processing from "conception till the final stage that is print"

Last edited by mcliu; 25-03-07 at 06:52. Reason: more eloberation
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  #16  
Old 25-03-07, 07:03
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To remove - OK; to add - absolutely forbidden.
However, Bruce has opened a whole new debate: where does skill end and technology begin? Unless the photographer goes out with a basic camera and uses judgement for all settings, he is starting to rely on technology. It is, therefore just a matter of degree. As modern photographers using a digital site, we must accept that images will be manipulated.
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  #17  
Old 25-03-07, 07:21
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Originally Posted by birdsnapper View Post
To remove - OK; to add - absolutely forbidden.
However, Bruce has opened a whole new debate: where does skill end and technology begin? Unless the photographer goes out with a basic camera and uses judgement for all settings, he is starting to rely on technology. It is, therefore just a matter of degree. As modern photographers using a digital site, we must accept that images will be manipulated.
Mike I am bit hazy about "to remove OK and to add is forbidden" As far as I remember manipulation of images were being done since ages i.e. before computer has come into being. Only the differance is, that time it was tedious ,you have to have mastery in darkroom processes beside knowing your camera. What is importent at this juncture ,the proper use of technology.A through professional knows the dividing line between legal and illegal act.He maintains that line respectfully.For he knows his images has to pass the information accuratly & effectively.A very fine balancing act.
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  #18  
Old 25-03-07, 08:58
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Hi mcliu. I see nothing wrong with removing clutter - it's not always easy to get the shot (particularly branches when taking birds, but also objects like cars in landscapes) without such distractions. However, I do not think that it is acceptable to add something to the image that was not there in the first place. An example would be taking a sunset from one image and adding it to another and then presenting the altered image as an original capture.

In asking where does skill end and technology begin, I was trying to make the point that a photographer may claim not to use technology, but would still rely on auto focus, exposure and white balance, which is quite a lot of technology. Add in filters, and the technology is getting quite serious (it would be no argument that filters have been around a long time - they still use technology).

I agree with all that you say about photographers manipulating images and would even take it one step further: the skill of modern photographers can also include use of digital manipulation. In the end, it all depends on what gives the individual photographer pleasure.

Personally, I am such a poor photographer that I'll use anything that I can (apart from adding) to get an image that pleases me. It's up to others to determine what they use and do.
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  #19  
Old 25-03-07, 12:43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roy C View Post
Just wondering what others think about the ethics of image editing like the attached - is this going to far ?.
We've been down this road before. If it's acceptable to you then that should be the end of it. In my view, PP is part of the art of digital photography and anything goes. I don't understand why you would not post a picture like the one in question in your gallery. As I said it's all part of digital art. I don't particularly like the modified picture, it looks unreal but that's only a matter of personal preference.
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  #20  
Old 25-03-07, 15:46
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Well said Mike & Dan , This discussion was recently a part of a reputed photography magazine .A quetion of similar nature too has been posted by one of the reader and I find it very interesting (as I said I too have undergone through the same dilemma).I was just wondering what other has to say about it. I think this is a phase of growth( painful one I would say for me).There was a time I was very much dependent on PS work.Now after a chance meeting with lello ,then Dan & Stephen fox(also an esteem members of this forum, and I am sure I going to meet many more) My whole mindset has been changed.Now for it has been long time since I done any PS work.I work hard to get a decent image.PS work only for resize till date.This must be my "second phase of learning" . I am experiencing something new inside me.As I said it is a "fine balancing act". Thanks to everyone to bear with me.Apologies if I have offended anyone by any means .
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